Old Fashioned On Purpose

S15: E3: Could a Working Dog Make Your Homestead Chores Easier?

• Jill Winger • Season 15 • Episode 3

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This episode blew my mind! I've been around plenty of working dogs, but they've always been used for working large numbers of livestock on huge pieces of land. 

However, this conversation with Jordyn Kelly of Working Aussies Homestead completely changed my mind. Listen as she shares the creative, time-saving ways she uses dogs around her homestead (even for handling chickens!), plus training tips and more.

Podcast Episode Highlights

  • Why working dogs are important for a homestead
  • The tasks of a working dog
  • Tips for helping your dog be chicken-friendly
  • Best working dog breeds
  • The possibility of training a dog you already own...
  • Basic training tips for working dogs
  • Biggest challenges when training working dogs
  • How to keep working dogs stimulated
  • Advice on how to start with working dogs
  • Resources from Jordyn Kelly

Resources Mentioned in This Podcast Episode:

Learn more about Jordyn Kelly and Working Aussie Homestead here: www.workingaussieshomestead.com

Never run out of meal ideas again! Learn about Meal Craft here: https://mealcraftmethod.com/meal-craft-main177846-9453

OTHER HELPFUL RESOURCES FOR YOUR HOMESTEAD:


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Speaker 1:

Welcome back to the Old Fashioned On Purpose podcast. Today's topic is one we have never covered here on the show, and I'm really excited about it because this is actually a topic I really see or at least I have thought of it as applying more to ranchers, and we're going to bring it into the world of homesteading today, and the topic is working dogs. It's a little bit of a point of embarrassment for me, maybe, because I actually own a number of dogs, a couple dogs who are of working breeds, and so sometimes when people see me they're like, oh, you have working dogs, and I'm like, yeah, I do, but the dogs do not work. They are pets. They are completely useless for anything uh, job wise.

Speaker 1:

So I'm excited to talk to someone who knows working dogs inside and out today, and she is a homesteader. Her name is Jordan Kelly, and her and her husband, josh, raise Australian shepherds on their property outside of Dunn, north Carolina. I've had the honor of meeting Jordan and Josh several times at homesteading events. They're awesome people and they are a wealth of information, so they use their dogs daily to help rotationally graze their livestock. They do herding demonstrations. They just have so much to share and I can't wait for you to dive into this interview with me today. So welcome Jordan.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm excited for this topic. Like I said, we've never talked about it before. I feel like I know absolutely nothing about this, even though I've been adjacent to working ranchers and dogs for a while. I just feel completely clueless, so I'm just going to dive in, get right to the point. Can you tell us why this topic is not only relevant for homesteaders, but how it could actually be something very useful for a small time homesteader?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely so. One of the main, I guess, points of even entertaining the idea of having a working dog on the homestead or the farm is a lot of people do not have the finances to bring on a tractor, an atv, you know a lot of corral equipment, a lot of things that you would use for larger livestock and and the big kind of myth around working dogs is like you need acres and acres of land and you need lots and lots of livestock in order for these dogs to work and be fulfilled and have happy lives. And that's kind of what we enjoy sharing about our dogs is we operate on an acre and a quarter, so not a lot of property at all, and I don't have more than 10 animals at a time that these dogs are moving. Now, chickens are a little different, but we have a little bit more condensed process when it comes to moving the chickens than we do our goats and sheep and turkeys and any other animals that I have used the dogs for. So we really enjoy sharing that you don't have to have a larger property in order to have a dog that's working. That is super beneficial.

Speaker 2:

My biggest reason why I'm an advocate for having a working dog is time management and they help so much with time management and that's going to be like one of your most precious resources when you're getting into homesteading and when you're farming is. We all have the same 24 hours in a day and so if you have, you know, goals and plans set in place that you really need to make sure happen, it's so helpful to have a dog that can be there to help with that time management. So that's really, I guess, kind of the introduction into why we enjoy sharing about these working dogs is because they can help in so many ways, but primarily that focus on time management.

Speaker 1:

I think anytime you say time management, you're totally speaking my language. That's one of my favorite things to talk about, and I truly have never thought about dogs in this realm being useful towards that end. So this is fascinating to me. Can you give us an overview of you know, in a regular I was going to say day, but maybe in a week or a month, what type of tasks are you going to use your dogs for?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so, um, so we do rotationally graze and we use, uh, electric net fences in order to move our livestock. Now, our livestock are a hundred percent grass fed, so they are already interested in moving to the next area before we even open the gate. Um, but I don't like chaos when it comes to my animals, and so having dogs there to help ensure that there is no chaos is really the goal. Now, when we have a younger dog, there's going to be some level of chaos because they have to learn. Um, but in the big scheme of things like going back to that time management thing but in the big scheme of things like going back to that time management thing, you know I want tourists to take less than 30 minutes.

Speaker 2:

That is moving everybody, that is, everybody's got food and water, and you know we don't have a large property so obviously that's a lot easier to do. But I don't want moving animals to take 30 minutes, to take an hour, like it should be. Set the fence up, move them, done Um, and so really that is what I am using my dogs for. So sometimes that is having the dogs fetch the livestock and bring them to me, have the dogs block um, an area I don't want the livestock to go in. You know, if we have an event coming up I'll spend some extra time practicing with the dogs, just slow, easy movement. We had gotten some newer sheep at the beginning of the year and so it was really helping the sheep learn to stick together. When you have different groups of livestock they don't always love to stick together. They're not from the same breeder or the same farm, and so it was just as important to work my sheep as it was my dogs. So really it's using them on a daily basis to just make sure that everything goes smoothly with movement If I have a chicken that decided to fly out of the fence.

Speaker 2:

You know, I have a dog. I have a couple of dogs where they love to go and bring that chicken back and put that chicken back up in the fence. Um, so really it's just helping me maintain that lack of chaos on the homestead, um, you know. But there's a number of other things that I'll have my dogs do. If we are butchering chickens, I have a dog that I'll have him jump into the chicken tractor and push the birds to me. So all I have to do is just reach down and grab a bird. Um, and I've worked with him enough where he knows that he's not to put his mouth on a bird.

Speaker 2:

So he's not injuring the birds at all, he is just using that body pressure to push them over where I can just easily grab them. Um, so we use our dogs and I try to get creative with something that they enjoy doing but also something that can benefit us. So like, uh, teaching a down stay. We use silage tarps on our small property because we have a market garden and so we use tarps and we do no-till. And a big benefit is when it's just the two of us trying to move that tarp. It's very helpful to have a couple dogs go and lay on a section of the tarp that we don't want to move and have them stay there. Now they're not super heavy dogs but you know, 40, 50 pounds.

Speaker 2:

we'll keep it there in place and they love doing that as much as they love working the animals because they're able to be there doing whatever with us. So, um, that's kind of a broad overview, is they help us with so many different things, not just on a daily basis but on a weekly and as the seasons change and we rotate beds in the garden, you know, helping with whatever, whatever they can.

Speaker 1:

This is definitely broadening my horizons. I love the idea of, like them, being a paperweight, because we're super windy here, as everybody knows, and so anytime we're doing anything outside with tarps or we have hail netting, like putting it up or taking it down as a nightmare, so I can just imagine sticking a dog on each corner and that would be awesome.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, oh yeah. There was one time we um, our property is pretty flat, um and there was one time we were trying to lift it up and the wind caught it and just like blew it all up and it was like this big old wave, but luckily I had already placed dogs on the other end and so it didn't blow away from us. It just, you know, was like, oh, okay, we got to get this wind out of here, um, so I'm sure the people driving by thought it was humorous to watch.

Speaker 1:

That's awesome. Um, okay, so I have a lot of questions, but one that really came to mind as you were talking just now is dogs and chickens. My dogs also love chickens, but not for the same reason as yours do, and we have had chicken killers in the past. We've helped that mostly, like most of our dogs know to ignore the chickens because we do free range them. We have one dog, jed, who I may reference several times in this interview because he is a problem child. He was a juvenile delinquent. I think he's just too smart and he uses his genius for evil purposes. But Jed will be okay with the chickens most of the time. He still every once in a while, just will go kill one when he's just in a mood. So how do you teach your dogs to be around the chickens, to even work with the chickens, to go towards the chickens in a, you know, a more energetic manner, without that instinct to kill or grab?

Speaker 2:

Um, honestly, it's just a lot of supervised interactions. Um, starting out, you know, I have one dog who just naturally loves moving the chickens and early on he's he's one of the dogs, he's one of my demo dogs that I use, and that's Ben. And he's the type of dog that he would do anything for me if I asked him to. He'd try to write his name if I asked him to, and he's extremely smart in that way and he's extremely bonded to me, which makes him such a great partner to work with, because if he doesn't get it the first time, he will keep trying again until he achieves what I'm asking of him. Now we do have a dog as well that is a notorious chicken killer. If the chickens are not where they're supposed to be, if the chickens are not where they're supposed to be.

Speaker 2:

Now that's where it's kind of that two sided of okay, no, I didn't want a chicken in the garden, but was it right of my dog to go in there and kill that chicken that was in the garden? No, it wasn't right. And that's where Finn would have easily gone, gotten the chicken out of the garden and went and put it up instead of going on to kill it. But that is where, with that dog, supervision is important. I've also learned it's important to make sure all of the chicken's needs are met before that dog goes outside. Now, when it comes to training, there are some dogs where you can do a lot of training with them to teach them. Hey, that's not an appropriate way to behave around the chickens. You're going to leave them alone. You teach a solid leave it. You teach a solid recall, you know. But that's that's where you just kind of have to learn your dog as well. As you know the livestock. Like is the livestock? Giving the dog a good reason to come over and say, hey, I look delicious today versus okay, that's something I can train out of him. And so Finn and Pine are brothers from the same litter and Finn is my go-to demo dog and Pine is my dog where he cannot be trusted outside if there's a chicken out Um, and so that's where we have just learned.

Speaker 2:

Okay, what measures do we need to put in place? And that's that's where people will come and ask um herding advice and training advice, and it's really it's based on the dog you have in front of you. So if you have a dog that you know can be um inappropriate towards livestock, then either put in some good like measures and um boundaries for that dog so that they don't have the ability to act inappropriately Um, or you know what kind of training do you really want to invest in that dog? So it's always going to be.

Speaker 2:

If they've and that's where we've we've fed partial raw and people think, oh my gosh, because you feed raw, then they're going to all end up animal killers. That's not true. Yeah, um, dogs are not the same in people where they associate the two together. Um, and and that's what I do enjoy about having dogs is because we can feed partial raw. But I still have a dog that you know, several dogs that know we don't kill animals, um, so it's just really in the kind of context you're looking at for the dog, and then what you are willing to put into to put those boundaries and those parameters to make sure it doesn't happen again, or you know what kind of training you can do to prevent it.

Speaker 1:

Okay, this is interesting. So I'm hearing it depends on the dog. Let's talk about breeds. For a second Cause, I know you have Australian Shepherds. In fact, the name of your farm is Working Aussie Farm. Is that right? Did I say that right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, working, aussies.

Speaker 1:

Homestead, homestead, okay, sorry. So I know you love Aussies, um, and I know there's other. You know there's border collies, there's healers. I have a couple of healers. I have a working mutt. So if people are looking at, let's start with. I can have two questions, but let's start with this one. If they're looking at investing in a dog that could potentially be a working partner on their homestead, so that's where I would definitely direct them towards herding breeds.

Speaker 2:

So you, of course, like the ones you mentioned, your Border Collie, your Australian Shepherd, your Australian Cattle Dog A lot more popular in the US is becoming the Australian Kelpie as well as the Moody, and you know. But you also have, like your German Shepherds, you have your Corgis, your Sheltees, you have your Bucerons. There's, you know, there's, I believe, 30 breeds in the herding group, and so you have a variety of dogs that were bred for various different reasons, for various different terrains and for different livestock. And so one of the reasons why we love the Australian Shepherd is they are a very versatile breed. So there is actually a team that is used in Yellowstone.

Speaker 2:

When you have the bison go out at the park, there's a team of Australian Shepherds that will go and herd those bison back into the park. So they are tough enough to go and stand off a mad bison, but you know they also can be super good on um very delicate poultry or um waterfowl, you know. So that's where you really want to look at. Okay, what kind of terrain do I have and what kind of livestock do I have and what kind of livestock do I maybe want to have in the future. And so it's really taking all of those factors into play and thinking, okay, what dog breed would be best for?

Speaker 2:

me in this situation. So, like a lot of people kind of think, corgis are not super intense herding dogs, well, that's because they were bred for smaller properties. That's why they have shorter, shorter legs they were not meant to cover ground.

Speaker 2:

You know, the border collie has a very stylish wide sweep because they were bred for hill conditions out in europe and so it's really thinking of okay, what is the terrain? That's going on life's talk. And then there's different characteristics of each breed that makes them easier to work with or more difficult to work with. And that also is where you need to think about yourself of okay, do I want a dog that's going to partner with me and stay with me during chores to make sure everything goes smoothly, or do I want a dog that I can just send out and go do chores by themselves? And that's you have to take into consideration too. Send out and go do chores by themselves, and that's you have to take into consideration too.

Speaker 2:

And so, like I had a friend reach out end of last year and he was kind of interested in an Australian shepherd.

Speaker 2:

But the more I talked to him, he worked at a farm where they were moving hundreds of sheep several miles a day and I said, you know, as much as you want an Australian Shepherd, I said I really think an already trained Border Collie is going to be a better fit.

Speaker 2:

And you know I was able to hook him up with a local breeder that just so happened to have a four-year-old dog that was already trained, and he fit in seamlessly to the operation, and so it really is just kind of thinking about yourself of do I also have the time to train this dog, versus would it be more beneficial for me to invest in an already trained dog? And there's resources on both ends of that spectrum. So there's a lot to consider, you know, and that's where, when you dive into anything homesteading, you always want to have that research period, so that period of okay, I'm going to research this before I get into it, or at least you should be that way anyways, instead of wasting not only your precious time but also, like your finances there, you want to make sure that you're making a good investment for your situation.

Speaker 1:

Good advice for sure, yes, okay. So my other piece of that question you know, if you're looking for a breed, that was awesome advice. And then what if you, someone has a dog who's maybe falls into the herding category, but they're trying to determine if that dog has the capability to become more of a helper, or should they just maybe look for something else? What are? Are there like benchmarks you look for with an existing dog that would kind of tell you if they're suited for that or not?

Speaker 2:

There is A lot of. It unfortunately relies on body language of the dog. So for a trained eye it's very easy to see the difference between prey drive and herding ability and herding instinct prey drive and herding ability and herding instinct. And so really in that situation is, if you already have a dog, a lot of stock dog trainers will offer instinct tests and basically where you go, you give them 50 or $75 for an hour session and they help determine if your dog is worth investing the time and money into herding training or if your dog is is just better off a pet. Um, so that's where there's. It's not like clear cuts. It really turns somebody who has a trained eye to say, okay, yes, your dog could be very helpful for that. Or, you know, it kind of looks like herding, but it's a lot more prey drive and it's a fun game of chase instead.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes.

Speaker 2:

The biggest aspect to that, too, is you also need to start with a dog that respects you and has some form of basic obedience training. Most dog dog trainers aren't going to take a dog until they're at least a year old. And you might have, you know, some breeds that herd or can be good herders, like you might have a poodle that herds, or a boxer or a chihuahua that herds, or at least thinks it's herding, but those are your one-off scenarios.

Speaker 2:

You know as a generalized, you know, not every breed is going to be a good working dog you know a lot of people say, oh my gosh, my pit bull is the best farm dog ever, and that might be true for them, but that does not mean that everybody should go and get a pit bull as a farm dog.

Speaker 2:

Um, you know, so it just is. Really, when you are wanting to get a herding dog, it is important to get this is kind of like goes into another um section of this but you want to make sure that you're getting your working dog from somebody who has proven that the parents are working or have working lines. That's a big thing we've seen in the australian shepherd breed is there's been a split, much like a lot of people see a difference in Border Collies you have a working line and then you have the show line that has the thicker, fuller coat, and we've seen that in the Australian Shepherds as well, and so that's why for us our name is Working Aussies Homestead. So it's important for me to have dogs that are proven to be versatile workers to help preserve the breed, but then also like if I'm sending puppies to working homes, I'm guaranteeing that these puppies will work.

Speaker 1:

It sounds like you're going to save yourself a lot of heartache if you are interested in this world, to just start with the right dog, instead of trying to force any old dog to fit into the category.

Speaker 2:

Right, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Which is a little different, honestly, than a lot of homesteading topics, cause I feel like often, my advice usually is like just make what you have work, just figure it out. But this is maybe a little more specialized, so it's going to pay off. Like you said, do your research, find a good breeder. It'll make your life easier in the long run. Yeah, definitely, hey, friends. So I'm interrupting this episode for just a second to talk about something that I actually used to be really embarrassed about so much so that I never talked about it publicly and that is the fact that every summer, I would basically completely fall out of love with cooking, so much so that I just didn't want to do it anymore. And I was thinking that I was the only one who felt like that until recently, when I started to share my deep, dark secret online and I found out that many, many of you feel the same way. I think it's just because we have so much going on in the summers that it's just really hard to find that motivation to get in the kitchen and put food on the table. The problem is our people. Well, they still want to eat, unfortunately, so we still have to find ways to nourish them and ourselves in a cost effective and healthy way. So I've been wrestling with this problem in my own life and for those of you, for many years now, trying different things, experimenting with different ideas, and I finally have created something that I think may just help. I know it has helped me.

Speaker 1:

It's called Meal Craft and it's not your typical meal planning system. Rather, it's a set of customizable frameworks that are endlessly flexible, based on what you have in your gardens, your pantries, your freezers, your larders. You don't have to go to the grocery store to do specific shopping trips or anything like that. We're just using what you have, which really is what homesteading is all about. So Mealcraft gives you four new frameworks each month and I'm personally having so much fun with these because they can be different every time Saves me a lot of money, it's reducing the leftovers and the waste that's coming out of my kitchen, and it just makes it a lot more enjoyable.

Speaker 1:

So if you'd like to join us over in Mealcraft over 600 of you have already joined the fun. You can visit the link in the show notes to learn more. Now back to our episode. Can you walk us through a few of the basics of just just for my own curiosity of just like starting to train a dog, um for farm duties and I know this is a super complex topic and then there's a lot of time and feel associated. But I just kind of would love some of your high level um checklists of how you do that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely so. I always, um, when I'm starting with a puppy I am wanting to really build that bond focus and that handler focus. So a great example one of our dogs she's a year and a half old now and that is Rogue. And Rogue was my keeper puppy from one of our dog's first litters and what I really wanted from the pairing was a dog that had a little bit more drive than Ray, um, which is her mom Like. She's a great working dog but she goes at her pace, which is fine on our homestead, because I don't want fast, quick go at one speed, um, and so Ray is. Ray can just adjust really well for that. So I paired her with a male that had more drive, had more go than woe, and so I was looking for kind of that perfect mix. So I kept Rogue because we did instinct tests at five weeks old and she was the puppy that had the most I'm going to go and hurt those sheep at five weeks old, um, so, working with her, knowing that I was going to keep her, I started just having her tag along with chores and I would just verbally praise her for coming and tagging along with me. Now, when she was younger, she would, maybe halfway through, go back to the house and hang out, which was fine. She's a puppy, so that attention span is a little less. Um, but as she got older, something that I would do regularly is, um, just tether her to me. So just take, put her on a leash, wrap it around my waist and I've carried five gallon buckets. Uh, with her walking right beside me and because I just wanted to really instill that her place was beside me with chores. Um, now, this might have been different if we had a larger property and more livestock, but on our small property I just want the dogs to stay with me so that if an animal is out, they're right there to go ahead and put them up. Um, so, like I said earlier, chores don't take very long. So it just was teaching okay, you stay with me.

Speaker 2:

As she got a little older, when she was about 10 weeks old, I started having Finn do chores with us, and when we would have a chicken out, he would not touch the bird, because I wanted him to instill that in her of we're not going to touch the birds either, we're just going to apply body pressure. And the chickens used to be Finn's job, and now Rogue beats him to it every morning. Um, but that initial, you know, I would tether until they learn the places beside me. And now I might take them off of the leash and try them out and see.

Speaker 2:

And if I have one day where I'm like I needed a dog right beside me but I didn't have a dog right beside me, okay, back on the tether. Now this might take just a couple of days. Um, when Ray was younger, I had to do it for three weeks. One time is like a refresher with her, because she got into this funk of I'm not going to go with you for chores and I was like, nope, I really need you there, even though it's boring most days.

Speaker 2:

But I needed to instill. I want my dogs with me for chores, so that's really the basics of it. They catch on pretty quick. So obviously a very smart braided.

Speaker 2:

All herding breeds are great problem solvers. That's what makes them so beneficial. Is they catch on to? Okay, this animal should be in this fence and it's not. So what am I going to do to get this animal back in? And Finn has learned the proper body pressure to apply to that. The bird flies back over and Rogue is just learning that she'll go and she'll lay down and kind of have the bird pinned against the fence. Now she's not touching the bird, but she's just laying there within a foot from the bird, keeping the bird there until I come over and help put it up.

Speaker 2:

But the initial training is just. I really want calm interactions with my livestock and so when it came to introducing her to the larger animals, we would go in, we'd take care of everybody. If she wanted to follow them around for a minute, that was fine. But then we would go out and I wouldn't have any sort of expectations of her showing any sort of hurting until probably when she was about eight months old Now when I started really going in and wanting her to show a little bit more interest in them. I would take her in on a long line still kind of the tethered mindset on a long line still kind of the tethered mindset and I would just honestly kind of micromanage the interactions that she had with the livestock. So if she got a little too energetic or a little too feisty I would just step on the long line and have her wait, let the stock settle back down and then we would try again.

Speaker 2:

And so the biggest thing with introducing a dog to livestock and getting started in training is you want there to be mutual respects on all levels. So respect between you and the livestock, respect between you and the dog and respect between the livestock and the dog. And if there's a lack of respect somewhere, you're going to see it come out in poor behavior and it's going to be either poor behavior from the dog or poor behavior from the livestock. So it's important for me that my livestock trusts me that if I bring a dog in I'm not sending the dog off to go and eat them. I want them to know that I have control of the dog when we are interacting. So my sheep are not terrified running around, they are calm and collected. And so when I'm training a young dog that has a lot of energy and has a lot of hurting presence which you'll see when a dog has presence and you introduce them to stock the stock take notice Now, if your dog does not have presence, they don't care that the dog is there. Rogue has a lot of presence, ray does not, and so they work very oppositely. So it's kind of showed me where I need to grow in knowledge as a handler as well, because now I have two different types of dogs to handle on the same stock. But it's just, it's really making sure that all of the interactions go smoothly.

Speaker 2:

So when you are starting training your herding dog, you are teaching them the rules and the boundaries when it comes to stock. So there'll be times when I go in with Rogue and she does what I call a cheap shot and she, as the sheep, is going by. She just goes in for a little nip. Sometimes she grabs a mouthful of wool, and that is not the behavior I want her to do, and so I will either put her in a lie down or I'll have her come to me and I'll have her lie down, because the reward is always the stock, being able to work. That's what makes herding dogs so um useful, because you don't need to go out there with a handful of treats. You have the stock and they want to work.

Speaker 2:

And so when you say you're not working, like how I want you to, I'm going to put you in a down state. They don't get to work. And so when you say you're not working, like how I want you to, I'm going to put you in a down state. They don't get to work. And so that is like their punishment, but you're not actually having to do anything other than keep them from the bad behavior that they want to continue. So getting started, it's teaching a leave, it teaching a down, teaching a stay and teaching come.

Speaker 2:

Those are like the top four things that you really need to train before you start working your dog seriously on stop, because that's what's going to save your shop, that's what's going to maybe save you from a dangerous situation and that's what might save your dog from a dangerous situation you from a dangerous situation, and that's what might save your dog from a dangerous situation.

Speaker 2:

You know we are lucky we're not working with cattle on our property. You know, we would love to someday soon. But if I had a dog that went in too fast on cattle, those cattle could potentially kill my dog, and so I want to make sure that I have trained my dog well enough and that my dog respects me well enough to listen to. If I say, lie down and back off, you better lie down and back off, Otherwise you might get killed, yeah, but the dog doesn't understand that. And so if you have at least built that bond with your dog of, okay, if I say lie down right now, you better lie down, and it might not, you know, the dog might not understand, like the reason why to do it. But working with your dog enough that if they do listen and then they get the reward of doing what they wanted to do, they'll listen more and they'll listen better because of those boundaries you've set in place.

Speaker 1:

So sorry, I tend to go off on that. No, that's a great, that was a great answer. And so you're saying it sounds like those basic commands, like you said. It's like the obedience training comes first and then you build on that. So you said come, leave it down and stay, which my dog should know those two, but not all of them do, but they should.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, there's your homework now.

Speaker 1:

There's my homework. I needed some. Yeah, I don't know Jed. I think Jed is incorrigible, but the others might be more open to this. Jed has become a little bit of like a celebrity on Instagram stories because he's just a weirdo and does horrible things with his life, so I shouldn't say horrible. He's adventurous in a way that's not conducive to my reality, in a way that's not conducive to my reality. So understandable? Yes, yes, anyway, um, what are some of the biggest challenges that you have?

Speaker 2:

found when you're training these working dogs and how do you work through those? Um, honestly, the biggest one for me is um changing, changing my handling skills based on the dog that I'm handling. So when I am working with Ray, ray is a very sensitive dog, um, she is very smart and she is is now at the point where she's very well-trained I now refer to as my cleanup crew. If the other dogs are not getting the job done or the task at hand that I need done, and I just find myself getting more frustrated, I just go and get Ray, because Ray just makes it happen and and she's very low drama.

Speaker 2:

Rogue, on the other hand, is very different. I can um call out in like a yelling voice and it's fine, unless she wants to, unless she wants to listen, and so I I just have had to learn. You know, tone is one thing. Making sure I'm calling out um placement of the specific dogs, like, if I'm working multiple dogs, I have to be very um, I have to pay a lot more attention of who I'm talking to doing what. So there's sometimes where Rogue is too much for the stock, and so I'll call her over and put her in a down stay and Ray will do a down stay as well, and I said, nope, ray, go walk up, you know I'll give her a direction or something, and so that has been my.

Speaker 2:

The biggest challenge for me to overcome with working dogs who work differently is, um handling situations differently. So there are some times where rogue is too much for the livestock and I have to change my plan in my head of okay, we're going to go out and do some herding, um, just training, do a little training session. The training in my head is not what Rogue has in mind, and so I have to go back of okay, we're not ready for that yet. Um, and then the training for Ray. Ray tends to amaze me because I expect less of her.

Speaker 2:

Um and so it's just kind of like changing that mindset, depending on the dog that I have in front of me. Um, josh was watching us train a couple of months ago and I was working with Rogue and I was getting a little frustrated because she wasn't understanding Um, and she kept making the same mistake like three times in a row. And I'm like girl, we're, we're working on this to go through it, not just keep doing the same mistake. And Josh said you're expecting too much of her. I'm like what, what do you mean? I'm expecting too much of her.

Speaker 2:

And he's like remember, she's not even a year and a half old yet and you're expecting her to do things that her mom, who is four and a half, has been trained and understands to do. And so that's also remembering I still technically have a puppy when I'm working with Rogue and I do expect big things from her because I see that she has a lot of potential, but it's just reminding myself, oh, I have a puppy. And she reminds me some days I have a puppy. So it's just changing my I guess my handler responses, depending on the dog I'm working with.

Speaker 1:

And it is challenging. It reminds me so much of working with horses. I think it's just so similar. You know, you have, I have my, my nicer horse, who he's the one I lean on for jobs, and then you like ride colts sometimes or ride horses that aren't as soft or responsive, and it's such a, it is such a challenge for the, for me as a handler or the rider, to adjust. But that's what I love about horsemanship and I think that dogmanship must be the better or the same thing, in that it's really working on you just as much as it's working on the animal, and it makes you pay more attention, it makes you better, it makes you more detail-oriented, which is why I love it and why it's also hard, but so good.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, definitely, and that's a lot of training a dog to herd. Is that attention to detail? It is that paying attention, it's knowing when to make the call of okay, this is too much for everybody involved, or this is too much for the dog right now, or this is too much for the livestock, because the last thing you want is stock that is freaked out, stressed out, you know, is stock that is freaked out, stressed out, you know, panting like nobody's business?

Speaker 1:

You don't want that. Yes, absolutely. Can you speak for a moment to this idea of making sure, if we have the herding breeds or the working breeds, that we are giving them enough to think about, because I know that a lot of people struggle with that. You know they'll get one of these hotter breeds, they'll put it in a smaller property or a house in town and then they chew, they jump out of the fence, they're miserable. What do you recommend to folks, even if they do have property but they have one of these hotter, smarter dogs? Maybe they don't have a ton of jobs every single day. How do you keep them stimulated?

Speaker 2:

Honestly, teaching them the art of doing nothing. Now, this is something that, like I know you have touched on with raising kids, raising kids of dogs. It's very similar. We're finding that, as our daughter is almost a year and a half old and the dogs make her easy, and the dogs make her easy, but, um, teaching them that it's okay to do nothing is really important, and there's a lot of different studies that have been done on this.

Speaker 2:

But, like, one good resource that I love is um training between the ears. Now he has a whole podcast, um, I believe the website is that title training between the ears. But it's really it's training focused on not necessarily rewarding a behavior, but like really enabling your dog to think through things, teaching them to calm themselves down, teaching them to work through their own anxieties. Um, so that that is really like my biggest tool in my tool belt is like, if you have a dog that is showing those behaviors, it's either because you're having it do too much, um, or you have not taught your dog that it's okay to not do things as well. Um, we have, we have a couple um puppy parents that live in town that have said well, you know, I have this issue where, like, suddenly my dog is chasing cars or they want to chase every person who's running by and it's because that dog has not been taught, taught it's okay to do nothing and it's okay to leave it and to ignore distractions around them. So there's a lot of different training tools, um, focused on teaching your dog how to do nothing.

Speaker 2:

But behavioral downs is always like my go-to. So behavioral down is essentially where you have the dog on a leash and you give them just enough leash to stand up and you have your foot on the leash. Now we've also done this where, like, we've tethered our dog to the couch or we've tethered them to a tree outside or something like that. But it's where they are in a position where they are kind of forced to just be there and not have any sort of distractions, not be told to do anything. But the more that you do it, the faster the dog gets to the desired position, which is lay down, completely relaxed, head on the floor. They take a good big, long sigh and then you take the leash off and you let them go. Um, now, the first time we did this to one of our dogs, it took him an hour before he laid down head on the floor completely.

Speaker 2:

Um, when we've done it with puppies, where they just are a little, they have a little bit more pent-up stress, um, from certain situations it might take them 15 minutes, but the more that you do it, the less time it takes them to lay down. But then you also see the benefit of that in better listening, not getting over aroused, not being super anxious, not showing those destructive behaviors, and so it really plays a part into that, because the best thing you can do for yourself as a person too is like when you are feeling anxious, when you're stressed, the best thing for you is to really sit down in the quiet and work through that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You know, have that time to yourself, and so by doing a behavioral down, you're kind of forced, like you're not forcing your dog to do anything. They still have enough leash to stand up, they can sit, stand up, sit down, lay down, whatever. But you're not allowing them to go and interact with anything else. So you're kind of forcing them to have that quiet time, that time of. Okay, let me work through this. Now you might have a dog that whines a little bit, but the whole purpose of that is you. You sit down and or you stand and you ignore the dog. You're not saying anything to them, you're not saying, oh, good job, you're not like just absolutely no interactions. You just stand there until the dog lays completely down and on the ground's a big sigh, lays there for a minute or two and then you unhook the leash. You don't say a word.

Speaker 2:

Um, and that that's the biggest thing with these smart dogs is they pick up so much from their people. You know I'll mess with our dogs regularly because they look at our facial expressions and so sometimes I'll come out and I'll be making this face and everybody's like what did we do? Nothing? I'm just kidding, like you guys are fine, um, but these, these dogs want to partner with us so much that they want to do good things for us. That's what you know referred to as bit of bull. You have a dog that wants to do things for you, and when you have a dog that wants to do things for you, and when you have a dog that wants to do things for you but you don't necessarily have things for that dog to do, then, yeah, they're going to have those destructive behaviors because they're like I don't know what to do I need to do something.

Speaker 2:

But if you work on those behavioral downs like that's always, always the first thing I go to is have you done a behavioral down? Let me introduce you to this and you will see that it will help. Now, if I have a period of time that I haven't done that with anybody, now we have, we have nine dogs, Um, and so we'll have everybody behave really well for a good period of time and then I'll have one or two dogs start to act out again. I go okay of time, and then I'll have one or two dogs start to act out again. I go, okay, back to training, because obviously we need to just, you know, refresh. Everybody needs to be back on the same page. I'll tell her that, or I'll do them, I'll put them in a behavioral down for a couple of days and it works like a charm and everybody goes back to being nice equilibrium where we're not doing silly things that only puppies do at. You know, six years old.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

Right, but that really is just kind of like I go to, especially with having multiple dogs. You know, it's very easy for somebody to set off the chain of, oh, let's all be over aroused, and I'm like, oh, we don't need to be over aroused, we don't need chaos in the house. Um, you know that's a common misconception in our house with nine dogs is that it's chaos. It is not chaos, it's quiet in the house and I have nine dogs in here.

Speaker 1:

Um, so that's that's good, so good, and it does remind me like so many correlations with kids too, like there's a lot there that I'm just as you were speaking, I'm like yep, yep, yep. Just because we're feeling have a lot of energy today doesn't mean we just live in absolute chaos. We manage those feelings, we sit with those feelings. Yeah, I love that. Awesome, awesome. And then we don't have wild, crazy dogs.

Speaker 2:

On a rainy day, everybody's lay down and chill out, and then, you know, next day weather's fine, we're outside working all day, and so these dogs are versatile in that way too is they love to be wherever their people are doing, whatever their people are doing. So if you have a dog that's in a pet home in town, you know that doesn't necessarily mean that you have the wrong breed for you, but you need to find a different outlet for your dog too.

Speaker 1:

Yes, that makes sense Totally. So, as we kind of gear towards wrapping up, I imagine that one of the questions that listeners are having at this point is you know, if they're like me, they're feeling inspired. That listeners are having at this point is you know, if they're like me, they're feeling inspired. The possibilities are, you know, rumbling through my mind, but I'm also like, okay, how, how would I learn this on a deeper level? Because if it's anything like horsemanship, you can get some through videos or books, but really you have to pick up a lot, I think, like you said earlier, just from being in person seeing dogs, seeing other people work dogs. So what's your best advice for someone who wants to learn more and they're not sure where to start?

Speaker 2:

Honestly, one of the best places you can go and learn more is actually attending a stock dog trial. A lot of people think, oh, that's only over in Europe. That's not only over in Europe, it's all over the U? S and there's a couple organizations that uh regularly host trials. Now you can go and you can audit. Usually it's sometimes it's free to audit, sometimes it's like $25 to audit. So auditing just means you go and you can go and observe Um and you can ask questions. It's a great place to meet people who own a breed of dog. You might be interested in Um and also see how those dogs work.

Speaker 2:

So the whole purpose of a stock dog trial is um really like if, if you are the one taking your dog there is to go and basically have other people judge and say that yes, you have a dog that can work stock well and work stock in an environment that's not home with stock that's not your own, and you put them through a variety of obstacle courses. You know different and it's they're usually rain or shine, so if it's raining you're out there right and like in the rain working your dog. So I've attended a few trials with Ray and we've titled there Um, but you know, that is probably the best place for you to go to learn more and to ask questions, because everybody who goes to a stock dog trial and I mean this with all the love in my heart is those people love to talk about their dogs. So that's, that's what makes it like a great place to go and learn. But then also it's very intimidating if you're getting into stock dog trialing because there are a lot of politics that come with that, because everybody's dog is not everyone else's cup of tea and they all have different working styles.

Speaker 2:

So, um, but that would be like the best place to go. So one of them, um, one of the organizations that we go to, is um, ahba, all Herding Breeds Association, and they host trials within an hour of us pretty regularly. But there's several organizations all across the country that host trials. I know of trials in Oregon, washington, arizona, virginia, georgia. You know, it just kind of depends like where you're located, um, but just researching stock dog trials in your area would be like a good place to go and learn, pick some people's brains about their dogs and then watch them work in person.

Speaker 1:

Yes, that's great advice and I know you also have resources and you have a book coming out soon Um give us more information on what you offer.

Speaker 2:

Yes. So the uh, the book that I have coming out is hurting on the homestead start where you are. Um, so last year I actually had written it and put it out as an ebook and I had joked with our friend who has a publishing company that oh, I need to get with you and have my book published and she said I think you should do it. So the book that is coming out is a lot more in depth. It does cover why you would want to pick a herding dog. It covers how to pick a puppy, how to find a breeder. It covers different breeds a little bit more in depth and then also what it looks like to get started those livestock introductions but then also pair in with the animal husbandry aspect and like why those dogs are beneficial but then why it's important to keep in mind the welfare of the livestock. So the book kind of covers all. So that is coming out here shortly. It's currently available on pre-order now until June 10th. So I'm anticipating it to be out and available soon thereafter.

Speaker 2:

But other resources honestly, like I love when people reach out and know support local, but that's, that's where, if you find a breeder that fits what you're looking for, I would definitely put that value way above supporting someone locally. So our puppies have gone from coast to coast, um, and so that's where, like most of our puppies do go out of state. And if you're looking for a specific breed of puppy, race, a specific way, um, you know, that's where I love to be a source of networking for that Um. So I do have sources all over the country, um, for either different breeds or for trainers or, you know, know of people who know of people, and that's my biggest thing for enjoying going to home, studying events or going to events and offering herding demonstrations is a lot of it with getting into herding dogs, um, a lot of kind of the older trainers um act as kind of gatekeepers.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I hate that because it was very intimidating for me to get into, you know, five, six years ago, and it's even more so now is this kind of like the, the cool kids club that you can't sit with us, um kind of thing. And I don't want it to be that way because the you know, having a herding breed of dog on the homestead on the farm has so much more benefit. But it does seem very intimidating because you think, oh my gosh, I need to get a puppy, and then I need to spend all of this time and money traveling for a trainer all of this time and money traveling for a trainer. You know so when I started training with Ray, the closest good trainer to us was over two hours away one way, and so that was a whole day carved out.

Speaker 2:

And when you are getting started, you want to go to a trainer at least once a week. Twice a week is better, but at least once a week. And so that was, you know. Luckily she was willing to barter, um, so I bartered some chickens and some fresh veggies for our herding lessons, but that was still so much time away from the homestead, away from everything else we were doing, and if I had actually been paying for that that would be a lot more expensive than what it ended up being for us. But you know, you have, good trainers are few and far between, and so that's what also kind of makes getting into herding kind of like gatekeeped, because you think, oh, you know, I can't do this myself, and it's not necessarily that you can't do it yourself, but you have to train yourself just as much as you train the dog.

Speaker 2:

And that is with any sort of dog training is it is not just the dog, it is probably 90% the person too. Um, you have to change how you respond to your dog in certain situations based on the situation that you're in. Uh, really, and so, anyways, long story short, I'll say that I love being a force of networking. Um, I've tried to kind of put myself in a position where I can help anybody anywhere with with what they're looking for. Um, and that has come from years of being a dog lover. I grew up reading every dog book out there and then when my husband and I met, he had an Australian Shepherd and a few months into dating we got our second one, and so they've been a whole part of our life, even before we started homesteading, and so it just is. Really that's my passion, and I love being able to share not only our dogs with people, but then also like give everybody resources so that they can enjoy their dog's life and their dog enjoy their life as well.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for being the person who's kind of pulling back the curtain, because I do. I mean, at least in my limited perception I also was always like, oh, you just don't go up and ask someone how to train a dog. It just doesn't seem like something you do, cause there did seem to be such like not secrecy, but like a lot of gatekeeping, and so I love when people break that down and they're like, hey, this can be accessible, you can do this, I'm going to be your guide. I think that's so valuable. So I appreciate you doing that in this realm, because it's really needed.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, definitely, and it's, it's more than you know. Always, my, my good rule of thumb is like, if you go to a trainer and they just put your dog in a pen with livestock and just let them go, that's not a trainer you want to go to, but that's where. So, like my book specifically covers, like, take it slow rather than fast and put as many parameters in place as you can to limit the risk on any sort of situation and just go from there. You know, when you have a dog that is bred and born to be capable, like, it just is really your learning curve too. You're, you're learning at the rate of yourself, rather learning at the rate of yourself rather than at the rate of the dog. The dog was literally born and bred to do this, and then it has been bred into them for generations, and so it's not necessarily that you're teaching the dog how to learn. It's the dog already knows how to learn. It's just teaching what the rules are.

Speaker 1:

Yes, absolutely so much, so much like horsemanship, like it's it's you, it's really you, and usually if there's a problem it's you, it's not the dog's fault, it's not the horse's fault. So yeah, so much crossover there. Where can folks find you if they do want to reach out for networking or ask about puppies or trainers in their area?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, bestplaceworkingaussieshomesteadcom. Okay, all of our social medias are linked into that and I try really hard to stay on top of all of the contacts that are reached out. So majority of the information on our website is based around our breeding program. But then we also have a couple other tabs on there. One is for speaking and one is for courses, so but that the courses is a whole separate thing that I I put together a online course for new puppy parents, just really to kind of help teach people how to set a solid foundation when they're bringing a puppy home potty training, grooming, what proper socialization looks like. So all of that I put together for primarily our new puppy parents, but also it's available on there for anybody with a new puppy to check out. But our website is really the best place, um, as well as Facebook and Instagram email. So all of those are all the places.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, are you guys doing any demonstrations at conferences this year?

Speaker 2:

Yes, so we will be doing a herding demonstration at Murray Fest Midwest. That is at the end of June. It is, let's see, june 29th through the 30th up in Webster City, iowa. So I'm taking a couple dogs and they're going to have livestock there. So it'll be even more fun because it's livestock in an area that my dogs have never been, so basically the same setting as if I was taking them to a trial. So we're really excited about that. And then we will also be doing a more in-depth demonstration and really speech on working dogs at Homesteaders of America Conference in October as well. So I will be speaking at the Homestead Festival next weekend in Tennessee on working dogs, but I won't be doing a herding demonstration so, okay, I will be there too, speaking.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I will connect with you there. Yay, so fabulous. I guess I think there are still tickets available. That's it Rory Feig's farm in um, oh my gosh, what's it? Columbia, columbia, tennessee, june 7th, 6th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th that week.

Speaker 1:

So thank you. Thank you, jordan. I am failing at event promotion today, so yes, so I think there's still tickets. If you want to come listen to Jordan speak, you can listen to me speak, and there's a lot of other awesome people speaking as well. So, jordan, thank you so much for this. This was so enlightening. Now I'm scheming. What are possibilities here for us on our homestead. I really, truly up until this last hour, I just didn't visualize how this could ever work for our situation. I just was so stuck in that mindset that a herding dog, a working dog, if they're not going to be a pet, then they need to just be on thousands of acres on a giant cattle ranch, and so I love the idea of using them for chickens and paperweights and so many other things. So thank you for that. Yeah, I feel like my horizons have been broadened after this conversation.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely Well good. Thank you so much for having me on.