Old Fashioned On Purpose

S15 E2: How to Become an Opt-Out Family

• Jill Winger • Season 15 • Episode 2

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Ever wondered what happens when a social media influencer with a million followers swaps the digital spotlight for a tech-minimal lifestyle? This episode features Erin Lochner, the inspiring powerhouse behind "The Opt-Out Family." Erin takes us on a journey from her high-profile career in social media to her decision to embrace a technology-minimal lifestyle. We delve into her new book, "The Opt-Out Family," and discuss how she and her family choose to engage more meaningfully with the world around them, rather than through screens. Erin's insightful and empowering narrative offers a refreshing view on how conscious choices about technology can lead to a more balanced and fulfilling life.

We explore the intentional decision-making that comes with living a low-tech lifestyle, especially in a family setting. From avoiding smartphones for children to steering clear of facial recognition apps, Erin shares the micro-decisions that help maintain a balanced life. The conversation also highlights the joy and opportunities that arise from offline interactions and the preference for face-to-face connections. Erin's experiences provide a compelling case for the benefits of a tech-minimal environment that fosters direct human engagement and thoughtful problem-solving.

 We discuss the invaluable lessons of healthy challenges and fostering independence in children, emphasizing the importance of real-world experiences over digital consumption. Erin's perspective on parenting, managing overstimulation, and reclaiming our intuition from technology offers practical strategies for anyone looking to create a more intentional and enriching lifestyle.

Podcast Episode Highlights

  • Erin's background and how they became an opt-out family
  • How some algorithms that are very harmful to us
  • What Erin's family looks like now as a low-tech family
  • Adjustments and resistance to becoming a low-tech family
  • The dangers of completely trusting the "authority" of the internet
  • Creative ways to stop using the phone so much
  • The concept of strewing...
  • Boredom and over-stimulation
  • Talking about hormesis
  • The argument about it being a privilege to opt out of technology
  • Encouragement if you also want to opt out

Resources Mentioned in This Podcast Episode:

Learn more about Erin Loechner here: https://www.optoutfamily.com/

Learn more about Air Doctor here: airdoctorpro.com
Use code HOMESTEAD to save up to $300 on your air doctor system

OTHER HELPFUL RESOURCES FOR YOUR HOMESTEAD:


Did you enjoy listening to this episode? Please drop a comment below or leave a review to let us know. This can help other folks learn about this podcast and we also really appreciate the feedback!

Speaker 1:

Hey friends, welcome to the Old Fashioned On Purpose podcast. Today's topic is a really important one, and it's one that you've probably been thinking about or talking about in your own home very recently, because we all know the statistics, we've seen the data, the reports, all of that information floating around about the effects of technology on our lives, and I know so many of you who are more minded, in an old-fashioned way. We're very aware of that. Right. We're making very conscious lifestyle choices to mitigate some of the issues. Some of us are taking more extreme measures to control smartphone use in our homes. So we think about this stuff a lot and we talk about that tension of technology a lot here on the show.

Speaker 1:

So I'm very, very excited to have a special guest with me today. She is intimately familiar with this world and she has taken a really awesome approach, especially considering her background, to this whole topic of technology and opting out. So Erin Lochner is the founder of the global tech free movement entitled the opt out family. She's a former social media influencer who walked away from a million fans to live a low-tech lifestyle and now she teaches others to do the same. So this is such an interesting background. I cannot wait to hear more. Welcome, erin, thank you, Jill.

Speaker 2:

I'm so happy to be here. This is going to be fun.

Speaker 1:

Yes, it's going to be awesome. I was so excited to get a preview copy of your new book, the Opt-Out Family. I think by the time this hits the airwaves it'll be available. Right now, I think we're still in pre-order land, right? Yes?

Speaker 2:

it comes out June 11th, depending on when you hear this.

Speaker 1:

Yes, Okay, fabulous. We're going to talk about that a lot because it was an incredible read. I devoured the book. It only took me, I think, two days to get through it. It was so good, Very much in alignment with a lot of my own philosophies old-fashioned on purpose and things like that. So I'm excited to chat today.

Speaker 2:

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1:

So let's start off with a little bit about your background, because I found this piece especially intriguing. Can you give us kind of just the bird's eye view about your background, your journey towards becoming an opt-out family and why? It's maybe surprising to a lot of folks who knew you back then?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's a bit non-traditional, that's for sure. I was a social media influencer Really. I've been online since the early days. I had my first blog in 2001,. 2002 with Zynga, if anybody remembers that platform and really just lived with one foot in that world. We were living in Los Angeles. My husband worked for Apple's ad agency. As technology sort of took root and became sort of its own beast, we just sort of adopted to it without thinking it through right. We both got iPhones and kind of just sort of followed down the own rat race of technology.

Speaker 2:

It's funny my first book is about kind of leaving the American dream rat race. This one is very much about leaving the technological digital rat race. So when I became a social media influencer really by accident, just not really even knowing exactly where it was going, probably very much like many of us who have lived in the influencer world, just falling into it, and when my daughter was born, I recognized pretty early on and she's 12 now, so this was a long time ago that if I were to continue down this path I would be parenting with my phone in my hand a lot more than I would have wanted to, and so that sort of kind of woke me up to the idea of what am I modeling here? What role do I want technology to actually play in our house? I feel like we always say things like technology is the future, without asking ourselves is it the future that we want? And so it was really important to me and my family certainly, with my husband's background might as well.

Speaker 2:

We knew where the algorithm was leading. We knew we didn't want our children to be part of that path, and so we thought, okay, well, like all parents do, let's go first, let's model something different, let's see if we can piece together a new way to do this. And that's sort of when our family motto be more engaging than the algorithm was born. And that's what this book is about. This is about how do we take as parents, how do we sort of take these ideas that the algorithm offers us that are not all bad right, otherwise we wouldn't be using it. How do we sort of take these ideas that the algorithm offers us that are not all bad right, otherwise we wouldn't be using it. And how do we recreate them in our own homes so we can do something even better, recognizing that it's not really enough to say no to devices. We have to say yes to something better on the other side.

Speaker 1:

I love that philosophy and I thought it was so creative and unique with how you explained why the algorithms are so addictive, why our brains are so drawn to them, kind of how it's exploiting our weaknesses in our human wiring, and how you're kind of fighting fire with fire. So I thought that approach was genius and it just made so much sense as you got into the book.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, thank you. I think really it was just the only approach that made sense, because I don't really believe in approaching things from a place of fear. I do not like just the disempowering idea of it's us against technology and what are we all going to do about it? We're going to roll over and take it and I think overwhelmingly what I hope that this book was able to come across is we, as parents, can do this so much better than the algorithm. We are more effective in ways that we probably already realize that we're just maybe not super mindful of, but we have the capacity and the availability and the accessibility to do this better than Silicon Valley, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Yes, so when you started to dig into some of the harmful realities of the algorithms that are really controlling our world today, what were the ones that you found most alarming? That really kind of got your attention?

Speaker 2:

Oh gosh, there are so many, and I feel very grateful that the research is out now, because I think in the beginning the narrative was very much why would you want to opt out? And now, even having these conversations, it's very much okay. Well, how do we do it? We know why, it's just how, but everything from mental health to, certainly, body image there's disinformation From every angle of what it's like to be a child.

Speaker 2:

I do feel like there is a real battle in terms of everything that is kind of humanity-based is really being stolen from these children, and so one of the biggest statistics that I was interested in when I read this was that 71% of parents believe that smartphones do more harm than good, and that number was so much higher than I thought.

Speaker 2:

These are parents that have already given their kids devices, maybe some parents that haven't.

Speaker 2:

I thought for sure that number would be lower, because we see smartphones in kids' hands all the time. But I think it's just this idea of we have opted in and all the way in. Maybe some of us haven't had a chance to count the cost, maybe some of us adapted before we really thought it through or before we had the sort of research to be able to make a mindful decision, and I think other parents, just I think everybody's kind of doing the best they can, but I think there was always a reason that felt like enough to say yes to the device. And I think now part of the book does sort of piece some of that apart and say well, you know, does it make you more social? Does it make you more safe? Does it make all those sort of justifications that we have for maybe giving our children a device? I tried to really deconstruct some of those ideas and look at the research and does that even bear out? A lot of it does not.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think that is you nailed it. That is kind of why a lot of parents are buying the smartphones is they know, like you said, 71% probably have an inkling that this isn't great. But it's the kids coming home saying everyone else has it. I don't want to be the one out, it feels bad, I'm going to be the weirdo and I think there's just that kind of cultural pressure that's really driving it and I think we know it's just hard to go against that grain.

Speaker 2:

It is. It is so hard, and so I think having even a proactive approach of okay, let's talk about other families that are different, let's talk about what other families value, let's talk about what we value and is this aligned with what we value, and having all of those conversations really early on, really does make a big difference in sort of staving off that conversation with your children.

Speaker 1:

I agree and I know with ours we don't. We aren't a smartphone family with kids. My oldest is 14. She has a flip phone just because she's. She has a job, she's like all over the place, so sometimes I legit need just to call her to get hold of her. Um, but it's been such a gift to have those conversations with her. We started years, several years ago, um and like just sharing the research, like when I read books like yours, or I recently read, uh, jonathan hates, uh, I I can't remember, remember how to pronounce his last name anxious generation. So good, so good. And I was like, guys, here's what I'm learning, look at the statistic, here's what the data shows, look at what's happening, and so like I think, enrolling the kids in the idea, so it's not just like mom said, dad said it goes a really long way.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, good for you. I love that you're doing that.

Speaker 1:

That's awesome, yeah, so kind of give us a vision of what is your family look like now as an opt-out family, as a low-tech family, and how long have you been living this way?

Speaker 2:

Well, there are so many layers to it as you know, where you just you sort of you can kind of plan long-term strategies and then you're pivoting along the way. So my kids are 12, 8, and 4. And just really from the get-go, we've never been the family that hands them a phone. One of my rules very early on was if you need this to connect with someone that you can't connect with otherwise, so if you need to call grandma, who lives in Florida and we're in the Midwest, then yeah, that's something that would be worth it to me and let's put you on speaker and we'll just sort of all as a family. We didn't really do FaceTime or any of those things, simply because I always found that it didn't help. You know, it's like you're here.

Speaker 2:

The reason why I call it the opt-out family is technology. You kind of hop onto this treadmill sort of thing, but like an escalator, and it's always going to be moving in one direction and it's always going to be moving toward the path of Silicon Valley. What they want right, and what we have done in our family that I think has worked well, is recognizing all of those little sort of pit stops where you can choose to either opt really really in or opt out just a bit. I'm thinking of just all those little micro decisions. So when our oldest went away to summer camp, there was this facial recognition app that you could sign up for as a parent. That would say hey, anytime your child, all you do is upload a photo of your kid and then we'll use AI to match your kid's face and anytime they're in a summer camp photo we'll text it to you. And I thought I don't know that. Number one I don't like her being followed around with a camera anyway. But number two, I don't feel good about being sort of inserting myself in her independent experience. I want to hear about it from her own mouth, from her own eyes. When she gets home, let's have a big like, let's have some cocoa and process the whole thing and have fun.

Speaker 2:

And that was one of those micro decisions where I think we were just faced with. Do we kind of push back on this now Because knowing that it will then get easier? So we had the whole conversation about what's AI, what's facial recognition, what does this mean? Why are we saying no? Kids are kind of born with this very innate sense of this feels right and this doesn't feel right. And so all of the children were like that is a really odd thing to feel like. So is there somebody following us around with camera everywhere? And we had to go through. Well, not everywhere, but there are places, and isn't that weird? It doesn't feel odd. So, anyway, that is sort of the mentality.

Speaker 2:

That's what a low-tech life is for us. It's tech-free in that it's not free from tech, but it's free. There is some tech freedom in it. You know, like, obviously I'm on a podcast right here with you right now and that's a lovely thing, but there are some. There are just so many hard notes. We don't, you know, google questions right away. We try to figure it out on our own. We don't ask Siri. We don't ask Alexa. We don't have any of these smart products in our home. I make sure that our house is the low-tech hangout. So I always say to people anybody that wants to come, I just say I'm better at answering my door than answering the phone, so just come over, you don't have to text before. I mean, we're pretty much always here. We homeschool, so just come on over. And all of those things kind of pile up to our kids being aware, yes, that technology exists outside of the home, but because it's not part of our daily rhythms and we've replaced it with other things, it's just a bit of a non-issue right now.

Speaker 1:

I love that. I want to speak more to the Google Siri topic in a little bit because I have a really awesome quote I love so much from your book. But while I'm thinking about it, I'm curious when you started to shift especially. I'm especially thinking of like leaving your online career as an influencer because I mean I also have been in the tech world, accidentally, as a blogger for a very long time. I was on Blogspot instead of the one that you mentioned. Yeah, like back in the day it was like so fun and so I mean this has been really such a focus of my life and I do. There's a lot of parts I love, but I'm curious what it was like when you initially made that decision to not only leave the online career but to go more low tech as a family, like. What sort of resistance did you face, if any?

Speaker 2:

I think there were really separate journeys, that there was me leaving social media, which felt like leaving my career, to be honest, and I would just report to anybody listening that is maybe experiencing that dilemma of do I stay on social media or not, if it's so much a part of my job, I will say you can have a very thriving career offline and still do what you love to do. It's possible. It's one of the practices that I always sort of highlight when I talk about leaving social media is once you look at kind of the opportunities that have come from social media and then look at the opportunities that have come from an in-person connection or even something like an email, just sending a simple email saying I love your work. I'm grateful that you're talking about this. This is an important thing. Those connections that have stemmed from something a little bit more personal are always more meaningful and do lead to the next opportunity, so much more than a quick Instagram fix or whatever else. So that's such a sign up, but I always feel like mentioning that to anybody. That's just a little bit like well, can I still do what I love? You can still do what you love and not be on social media Probably be better at it because you won't be distracted, and so that was kind of that one. That was one part of the journey was leaving that. And still I write every single day and so it was just a matter of not publishing every single day. I would just decide it would take a lot for me to hit the publish button and when I did I knew it was something that needed to be said. So there was just a part of me that decided I don't want to add to the noise anymore and let's just maybe try to just peel this back just a bit.

Speaker 2:

But in terms of the family being and I think we just started that way, to be honest, we just from the get-go we're pushing back on I mean, certainly no iPads at restaurants or, you know, in grocery carts I think we just always sort of wanted to guide them to be observant people. So a lot of times we just guided them toward paying attention to the world around them. I think that's how we learn and that was very, very important to me. So I think of the stories in the book. But when we were at the pond my mother-in-law lives in a pond and my daughter sort of ran up to me and said I saw this creature. This was the craziest thing, and she was probably four or five at the time and she described this thing with scales and it but also fur. And I was like what is she talking about? And I remember my mother-in-law saying, well, let's pull up Google photos and see, sort of, if you can spot that creature. And I thought there's got to be a better way to do this without the phone. Like how would we have done this in the 80s or in the 50s or in the 20s? And I remembered our neighbor from across the pond. He is a retired science teacher and he knows that pond like the back of his hand. He's lived there 20 years. He fishes all the time. And so we called him and we said, hey, like what is this thing? Can she explain it to you? She got a third of the way through and he said that they're making a nest. Do you want to come see it? Bring your family.

Speaker 2:

And I just think so deeply about all of those missed connections that we have skipped over in the name of convenience, in the name of being able to Google something or get the result quicker, and so to answer your question when there's like resistance, you know when they're and and we really didn't experience resistance with the kids we experienced that internal resistance of this is harder. You know it would be easier to when we're, you know, on an airplane, it would be easier to give them the iPad, but probably not in the long run. Not easier, easier isn't always better, you know. We know all of those things to be true. So I think really the only resistance was just the recognition that this is going to take a little longer. It's the slow road, but it's a good road and so in that respect, it was very easy to just keep on going.

Speaker 1:

I know my audience. They're good at doing the hard things, but the good things, so I know that will resonate with them a lot. Just because something is harder doesn't mean it's bad. Hey friends, so I'm interrupting this episode for just a second to share something pretty cool with you.

Speaker 1:

So I'll never forget the time many years ago when we visited a naturopathic doctor to talk about my husband Christian's allergies. He's dealt with them since he was a kid and he's kind of just one of those people who tends to be allergic to pretty much everything. And the doctor's recommendations was to put in a air filtration system in our house, to stop working in dusty barns or outbuildings and to stop being around animals. And I walked away super frustrated because obviously, if you know us, that's just not an option. We're going to have the animals, we're going to have the barns, we're not going to go live in a sterile house somewhere in a big city. So I kind of ignored those recommendations. But over the years since then I've heard a lot of other naturopathic doctors and people in that space talk about the importance of having some sort of air filtration in your home. I just didn't really know how to do that and I didn't like the thoughts of putting in a ginormous system that sounded really complicated and super expensive. So I was really excited to come across Air Doctor. Complicated and super expensive, so I was really excited to come across Air Doctor.

Speaker 1:

Air Doctor is a air filtration system that captures all of those super tiny contaminants that you can't see. Think things like dust, pollen, mold spores, pet dander, bacteria, viruses and even things like ozone gases and VOCs. It's this little unit. You don't have to hire an HVAC company to put it in, you just take it out of the box, plug it in and off you go, and it has this thing called an ultra HEPA filter that is proven to filter particles that are 100 times smaller than a typical HEPA filter. So it's kind of like a HEPA on steroids. So we have ours in our bedroom because we spend more time there than any other room in the house, while we're sleeping, of course, and I love knowing that, at least for that period of time, especially during the summer months, our body is getting a break from the constant pollens and histamines and everything else that's floating around outside and, quite honestly, it's making us a little bit miserable itchy eyes, runny nose, you know the whole nine yards. So I'm excited for you to give it a try, if this is something you've been struggling with as well. Air Doctor comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. So if you don't love it, you just send it back for a refund, minus shipping. And I have a promo code for you. If you use the code homestead, you can save up to $300 on your Air Doctor system. So head on over to airdoctorprocom that's A-I-R-D-O-C-T-O-R-E-R-O, airdoctorprocom, and use the promo code homestead to give it a try.

Speaker 1:

Now back to our episode. So I loved so much that piece and I have the quote here, if you don't mind me sharing it. It says when we stop listening to our guts or we stop listening to our gut, we have Siri. We stop wrestling with uncertainty. We have Google. We stop seeking counsel from our elders. We have Siri. We stop wrestling with uncertainty. We have Google. We stop seeking counsel from our elders. We have TikTok. Soon.

Speaker 1:

The truth we're searching for won't be ours, and I highlighted that really aggressively in the book because I have felt that within myself, even though I'm so committed to old-fashioned living and doing things the old-fashioned way. One case in particular I realized I was completely trusting my GPS map app in my phone to the point where I stopped paying attention to where I was in a new city or where I was driving because I just trusted the phone and I stopped using my own sense of direction. And when I realized that I'm like. This is concerning and I think, like you talk about in the book, we lean on tech as an authority in our lives so much. Can you speak to that a little bit more and how folks can start to tap back into their own intuition and just get away from thinking we have to have the phones or we have to have the apps, kind of be the all-knowing authority figure?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love that. And, man, you're so right about the maps thing, gosh. You know what, for me, a big step in sort of removing technology as the authority was. This sounds really trite and very easy to do, and it is easy to do. And there's something I don't.

Speaker 2:

I'm not sure why it worked so well, but I had a smartphone and I just I changed my background to full black, so I took away, you know, the family photos or the cute Bible verse or whatever was on the lock screen and on the wallpaper, and I just made it black and it sent it sent this signal to my brain that this is a phone, not my phone, and it was like I was depersonalizing the experience. I know I no longer felt like my life was on or in that phone. It was just something that sat on the counter when we needed to call somebody, and it became so non-attractive to me to even take that tool anywhere else. I didn't need it going to the library, I didn't need it going to the grocery, and I found that in the absence of it, I didn't really care what was happening in that world. I mean, I didn't have internet access on it, so there was no world really on there anyway. So I think removing, just starting with sort of something that's initially a little jarring to kind of remove yourself from that habit and then replacing it with a real life solution.

Speaker 2:

So I think one of the often overlooked costs of high smartphone usage or even high participation in internet culture as a whole, whether or not it's receiving information from online, is I think we forget to use the word, yet I think we think very is. I think we forget to use the word, yet I think we think very short term in terms of like, I need this information, I'm going to go seek this information, and I think we can be grateful for all that information. We can be grateful for the voices like yours that are speaking to okay, how do we do this? Practically Like, how do you homestead and how do we? I'm running into this with my farm and what can I do about this, and I think those are all really great resources. And when we stop there, we've kind of dug ourselves into a hole because you're not Jill available for everyone listening at all times, but the farmer down the road might be, and so I just tend to when I'm thinking about how do I remove technology as an authority in my life.

Speaker 2:

I think the only way to do it is to replace it with an actual authority figure. That can be anything. I mean it could be, you know. If you're a believer, it could be scripture. If you're in an in-close-knit community, it could be elders, it could be grandparents, it could be multi-generational living, which we firmly believe in. But it's just having an authority figure that you can trust, that you know will hold you accountable, that you know will be transparent, that you know has your best interest, that you know has some sort of context for your life. I talk a lot about how, if I can't bring you a casserole and vice versa, we're not actually in community. I don't know that there is such thing as an online community, so I think wrestling with that is worthy. I think that's a really important step to take when you're sort of reassessing your relationship with technology.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love how so much you're speaking in the book about replacing it with something better, not just leaving this gaping hole and just like right knuckling it through, but like there's so much better out there. And we talk about that a lot, you know, in my audience circles like that's why we're choosing the harder path, that's why we're choosing the old fashioned life, because it's better, it's just so much more fulfilling, it's like living life in full color and I love how you really lean into that. It's reassuring. Thank you, do you have any? Because I just love practical pieces. Do you have any kind of creative workarounds that you have come up with? You know, I even think about I have a smartphone, of course. Let's say, I deleted all the social media off. That would be awesome, but there's still things that I, you know, I still use my maps Sometimes. I, you know, I listen to podcasts. I I have some of those apps that they're not social media, but I do use them. They make life simpler. Have you found any creative workarounds for those things?

Speaker 2:

One of my favorite things that I did. I've I've done a flip phone, I've done no phone, I've done like many, many different sort of I'm curious about like what is the best way for each season, and I will say it changes. There are seasons in which I think you are sort of geared toward living more tech-heavy seasons than not, and I think that that's a personal decision. There's room for that. One thing that I did was I turned all the parental controls on myself. We have a video on how to do this on our site if that is helpful for anybody. But I just think parental controls aren't just for the kids, right? They're for the parents too.

Speaker 2:

And so I turned my smartphone kind of into a dumb phone in a way that is irreversible, like it's reversible. So if I'm traveling and I do need to call an Uber for my mother or something, then I can do that. I can just turn all those controls off. It's not hard to do, but it's an extra step, so you have to kind of think through it. So I think it just becomes easier to just flag down a cab or ask somebody when you get there. But I think sometimes when we think about making that tech change. We think we have to go big right, like now, we have to get the wise phone or the light phone.

Speaker 2:

I think it's very interesting that it almost always includes a purchase that we feel like we need to make I don't like that, and so I think, if you already have a smartphone, keep it and just turn on the parental controls. Don't invest in something else that you may or may not solve the problem, whatever that problem might be for you, but there is no product that we can buy that will provide us with self-control. We just have to practice it and we just have to grow it, and we can. It's doable, but that's a step that I would start with.

Speaker 1:

I can't remember if it was your book or somewhere else I was reading about turning on like the grayscale black and white oh, that's in my book too.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, that's right Okay.

Speaker 1:

I thought of it when you were saying the black background and I did that and I'm like this is not as enjoyable to use at all, which is the point. But it works Right, it totally works, it does. I'm going to go look at the real world, which is in full color, yeah, okay, a few other more kind of practical questions. I loved in the book where you talked about the concept of strewing and I've actually done that a lot as a parent but I didn't realize it had a name and it was an actual thing. Can you speak to that a little bit more? I think my audience would really resonate with that.

Speaker 2:

I love it too. I always say that is like the only parenting trick I ever have in my book and we do it all the time and probably most parents do, without realizing it too. But it's an early childhood development concept and the idea is just, it's exactly what Instagram does, it's exactly what TikTok does. It is just sort of putting some engaging things throughout your home and letting your child stumble upon them naturally. So there's no teaching involved. There's no. Let me show you today how to make muffins. You just leave the muffin ingredients on the counter, you wait for them to be curious about them and then you explore it together, because then there's buy-in right. Then it feels like it's their idea, it feels like their curiosity has led them to something delightful, and it has. It's just that you kind of got that ball rolling. So I mean, we can do this really well by just leaving a puzzle on the living room coffee table, a started puzzle.

Speaker 2:

I think that that's a big difference. I think if you kind of get it moving for a child, they will want to join you. We have books on almost every surface and I'm always switching them out and you know, I think having that element of delight and surprise in the home is a really. It's engaging. There's a reason that tech companies use it. It is fun and it's exciting and it feels like just enough to kind of combat the daily doldrums of just everyday life we have. I mean, you know, there are so many rhythms that are so wholesome to rely on and there are seasons where those rhythms feel like they're drudgery, like you want something new, you want something to sort of occupy your mind other than just the daily everything that you're doing, and that's a really good, easy, low stakes, high impact way to do that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it's you know. I see parents sometimes they're, they are exhausted by feeling they have to constantly entertain and I'm like I don't entertain I very rarely. I don't feel like I'm the entertainer Because, like you said, it can be so much simpler just doing less and just leaving things strategically around. But man, the kids are so much more interested when it's their idea. It's just fascinating how well that works.

Speaker 2:

Yes. And the other thing is just honestly dump your recycling bin out on the back porch and give them some scissors and let them go. I mean anything. It's so simple, and I remember having my kids cut junk mail and that was just fun for them. Bristle against the idea that we should have to, you know, purchase new things to be able to make these things happen. It's all. If it's not free, it's probably not going to be sustainable, so use what you have.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean kids and cardboard boxes. There's really no better combination. It's like magic, yeah, ultimate toy Rocks, sticks and cardboard, it's all you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So kind of along those lines. You spoke in the book about boredom in kids and I know that I believe boredom is really beneficial. A lot of my audience is along those same lines, because that's where creativity is born. But you talked about a type of boredom that's actually prompted by overstimulation from the pervasive technology, and I have been seeing this a lot in kids, especially recently. Can you speak to that and how parents can counteract that, because it concerns me when I see it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, oh my gosh, and this was an enlightening thought by Dr Kevin Gray. I interviewed so many people for this book but I had never drawn this conclusion. But when your kid is bored and they're kind of walking around the house and they look a little listless that is true boredom, but then there's that look where they're a little restless. It's a very fine line. We know our kids well enough to know the difference. And yet what Kevin was saying was that boredom only becomes boredom until it hits the threshold of overstimulation. So you can actually be so listless that you become restless. And when we short circuit that kind of slow, it's not quite a growth but it's a slow process that's happening with your neurons. I'm not a scientist so I don't really know the exact terminology, but it's a slow shifting that's happening over time. And when we short circuit enough and we all know the effects of dopamine then we are now moving into just a response over stimulation mode at all times, and it's hard to move away from that once we're in that kind of cycle. So I actually asked Dr Carla Hannaford. She's a researcher, she's just a brilliant neurobiologist I believe is her actual term and she talks a lot about how learning doesn't really just happen in the brain, it happens neurologically in your body and it's a full body sensory experience. And so I asked her to give some exercises on what kids can do once they have hit that overstimulation period. How do you detox from that? I think we get it wrong when we talk about digital detox. Right, we think we have to detox from the screen experience. We're actually detoxing from what happens after that, and that's where these exercises come in handy.

Speaker 2:

She calls them brain gym movements. They're on our site it's optoutfamilycom, but you can get them there. But it's like very simple things. You're doing sort of crossover movements. You're doing movements with your arms and legs in a strategic way to kind of move past and reintegrate your brain so that it's making those connections, so you can kids and adults alike see opportunities to move out of that space alike. See opportunities to move out of that space. And it's a practice and yet you can do it sort of proactively. Even if your kids aren't on screens or even if they're not reaching that overstimulation part, you can do them anyway and they just help reintegrate your whole body so that you're more attuned to the world around you and you're a little bit more observant of those opportunities of oh hey, I am feeling a little bored, let me go do something productive or let me do something creative and let's move past that zone. The idea is to get kids to recognize it themselves, so that the parent doesn't become a cruise director of hey, you look a little listless.

Speaker 2:

Can we do this instead? It's wildly efficient. It's a really effective way to to stave that off.

Speaker 1:

I love that there's some exercises. I'm going to totally go check those out Awesome. You also mentioned kind of along those lines when we're talking about dopamine and I feel like often in my own self when I have noticed that I have spent too much time on social media, I'm in the middle of a product launch, something that I'm just does that the real world doesn't feel as exciting or engaging because my brain is almost like hooked on. I call it cheap dopamine. I know that's not the scientific term, but that's what it feels like right, just like that nonstop go, go, go reward. That's not real and not lasting. So you talk about hormesis in the book, which is dopamine's antidote, and what's the relation in when we're talking about that with healthy challenges and how they can actually help break that spell of social media for us and our kids?

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah. So Anna Lemke is sure a dopamine nation, wonderful researcher about dopamine, wonderful book, and hormesis is just the balancing of all and it can come back down. I think that we sometimes think, well, this is just the world we live in, it's just a dopamine high energy world. We can reset those sort of settings in our body. And she says it takes about 30 days to kind of establish like a long-term remesis. But a good way to do that and I don't think this is on accident is healthy challenges and that's what our kids need. I don't think this is on accident is healthy challenges and and that's what our kids need. And I also spoke with um. Well, part of the book is all about okay, well, how does, how does the online world do this? And then how does the real world do this? And, um, one way that that we can do this as parents is I spoke with a researcher who is doing so many interesting things in developmental psychology around the idea of independence, childhood independence, because that's kind of been taken away and he talks and he didn't approach this from the dopamine concept.

Speaker 2:

But it's exactly that he says instead of thinking AI, think IA, independent activities. So the idea is just to talk with your kid and ask them hey, want something that you've always wanted to do but we haven't allowed you to do yet. Like what, um, for my daughter? She's actually doing it right now. She's, uh, almost 12 and she wanted to bike to the ice cream store and the grocery all by herself, plan a dinner, get it all done. She brought a friend with her and, um, it's probably five, six miles away, I'm not really sure, but it's far enough away that and she doesn't have a phone and we're like you should be able to do that.

Speaker 2:

I feel like they probably did that in the forties and the fifties. That sounds really very healthy. So let's do IA, right, let's go flip it and do the opposite. But that's a way to establish Hermesas, to just rebalance all of those ideas that we have to become reliant on an object outside of ourself to stimulate us. And the way, the only way to combat that is to recognize the world already is stimulating and plenty so. And if we allow ourselves to be in it and to get our hands dirty and to grow things and to be involved intimately in the world around us, that comes naturally. We can sort of rebalance all of those settings that we've maybe have gone a bit awry.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and the sense of just accomplishment and achievement is so much greater Once you get into that and do that hard thing like there's nothing like it, and I think that a lot of modern folks are missing that. We've kind of forgotten that just because life gets so easy whether it's because of smartphones or just the rest of the convenience we're just really missing that challenge piece.

Speaker 2:

Yes, you know as well as anyone that at the end of the day, when you've been working, working and all of your muscles are sore and you fall into bed and there's that, just, it's just that weight. You sleep so good. It's like it is just universally healthy for all of us, and we forget that our kids need that too. I mean, we certainly forget that we need that. I think we probably live far more sedentary lives than our kids do, and yet it has to be a family affair. Everybody has to. We have to know what it's like to feel that that weight again of hard manual good labor.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, there's nothing like it. I think half the time I was telling my husband this morning I'm like that's really why I work out. I like that feeling. I mean that's my reward for working out. I don't always love the gym. I kind of get you know, we all get tired of it. But I'm like I love when I go into bed and I'm like, oh, I can feel my muscles and they're a little sore and they're heavy and it's just, oh, it feels so good.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yeah, um question I had cause I've I've run into this before. We we did a TV fast and people on the podcast have heard me talk about it before. Um, we went for seven months six or seven months without TV and I shared it on social media and it made a lot of people angry. And one of the questions I got the most, which really caught me off guard and I didn't know, I didn't expect it was they said that it was a privilege to not watch TV. And so what would you say to someone who maybe says that same thing about opting out of technology? They see that as a privilege.

Speaker 2:

I love that question honestly, and my response is when you look at the research right, when you see that these phones are stealing our kids' data and using it to manipulate them, when you see that educational apps are being sold as educational but actually they are far from educational, they're just training you to be a consumer. When you look at the mental health development of children, when you look at the suicide rates, when you look at the eating disorders, when you look at the world we are giving our kids, I would say that anytime you look hard and deep at that research, it kind of becomes not a privilege but a responsibility. It really does. It hits you differently when you think these are our children, this is everyone's children. This is not just us sort of in our own home, shutting the door to the world, locking it. We have got to find a new way to live so that we can show other people how to do this and that it's possible.

Speaker 2:

And I think that's a right and I think that's a responsibility and I will boldly say that, that we can't just call it, you know, I think sometimes that we just kind of die on that hill of it would be privileged, because since everyone can't do it, then no one should be able to do it. But I think we're going to reach a time very, very soon and I think a lot of racial profiling in AI and in those programs and I spoke with AI experts that said, yeah, we don't have this figured out yet, but yet it's being deployed everywhere there will be a time in which it's not going to be safe for everyone. There will be a time in which it's not going to be safe for everyone, and so if we can just sort of stand up now and say this is not strategic or sustainable in the long run, can we make some changes now? And I have some ideas because I tried it. That's not privilege, that's helping, you know. I think that's just sort of leading people in a way that is accessible.

Speaker 1:

Right and it's very empowering because you don't have to be a victim of the technology. Like you, you can, you have those choices, and that that's an empowering message. At the end of the day, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so we're, we're rolling up here. I'm going to kind of land the plane. I'm sure there's people listening to this now. I know if they're in my audience. They probably thought about weeding some more technology out of their life or maybe giving up social media things along those lines it can feel really overwhelming. And you've given some awesome practical tips, and there's way more practical tips in the books book two guys. So definitely go get it. June 11th is when it will hit shelves. But just if you could give a piece of advice or encouragement to the listener today who's like I want to do this, don't know where to start, what would you say?

Speaker 2:

I would start just with the knowledge that we can course correct at any time. If you're sort of in a season where you felt like you've been too reliant on technology and you regret that, you can course correct. If you have already given your kids devices, you can course correct. I mean, there are ideas on how to do all of this in the book, but I think sometimes it feel this when we talk about technology it feels very emotional, it feels very guilt-ridden, it feels very shame-filled and a lot of times when I talk to parents about this, I just ask this simple question let's play out a scenario where let's not even talk about phones, let's not even talk about technology at all. What would happen if you gave your child they had been begging, begging, begging and you gave them their family dog that they were wanting forever and ever and ever, and your 11-year-old daughter now them their family dog that they were wanting forever and ever and ever. And your 11-year-old daughter now has the family dog and turns out the family dog is a bit of a hassle, right? So it's making her anxious because she's taking it on walks and it's not going where she wants it to go, or it's making her lonely because her best friend can't come over anymore, because she's allergic or it's making her anxious and not sleeping well, because the dog's up all night barking or potty training or whatever.

Speaker 2:

I just like to ask parents, what would you do in that scenario? Because truly there's not a wrong answer except to not question it, and so that answer is going to be different for every parent. Would you rehome the dog entirely? Would you take it away? Would you take shared ownership over the dog? Would you kind of let them figure it out on their own, take shared ownership over the dog? Would you kind of let them figure it out on their own and just hope for the best? I mean, there's a wide range of reactions that we as parents can make and take, and I think once you have the research and once you've sort of read what is available to you, then it's up to you to choose, and it's your path, and I say that all the time. You know there is no wrong answer except to not question it at all. And so if you're looking for that first step, I would say just just think ahead, play it out just a bit on what you would do in that scenario, once it's depersonalized and once it's not quite as kind of ringing the red alarm sort of fire sirens and ask yourself that in a very non-judgmental way and just see how would you approach this as a parent and then move forward from that place, knowing that you do have the research, knowing that you have the capacity to do something different and to do it a different way. I think never underestimate the power of being different when making these choices. Read some books together as a family about families that have gone against the grain. Explore that around the dinner table.

Speaker 2:

None of these things have to do with technology. They just have to do with going your own way, doing something different and figuring out what are your goals as a family unit, recognizing that some of those goals are going to brush off on your kids and some of them aren't. For us, our long-term strategy with this whole tech issue is just we will provide a landline for you. We won't be buying you a phone ever. That's your choice. When you start driving, we'll have a flip phone in the golf compartment that everybody can use or share.

Speaker 2:

But I recognize you're going to be making your own decision about this, and so this can't be the hill that I die on, even though I try really hard to, even though I find myself over-cont controlling, I would just share the general advice that my pastor always shares with me, which is that for every mile traveled, there's a ditch on either end.

Speaker 2:

So we can make this tech thing. You know, tech is not this salvation issue, but idol worship is. So we can either idol our technology or we can idolize our technology stance and the fact that we don't have that. We are anti-technology and neither is good. You know, we have to just keep a very clear direction. Of sure, we're doing this a different way and our kids might choose something different beyond that, and that has to be okay too. Their relationship has to come first, and the hope is just that we will nourish them and model good habits and see if we can kind of have them catch those delightful moments along the way and we can woo them into our lifestyle. But it's their choice. It is their choice.

Speaker 1:

I just appreciate your balanced approach to that so much, because we can get caught into extremes on both sides, and so I just love that you're so reasonable with that and I think that goes a long way. I think that's also really helpful to kids when they can see that, instead of just like black and white hardcore one way or the other.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, they will be loved, no matter what. They are welcome here. You know it just kind of um approach it from it. I mean, this is their world, right, this is their life and and we can work really, really hard to give them something better, and then it's up to them to choose where to go next. Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1:

And I, I would venture to say that when they are surrounded with the curiosity and the wonder and the delight of the natural world, that, um, that's just more in living color and more enjoyable anyway. So I think they're going to be well inoculated that that's something worthwhile.

Speaker 2:

I think you're right. That's the hope. That's certainly the case from everyone that I talked to that has gone this road. It is a good road to travel. Yes.

Speaker 1:

Erin, this has been so wonderful. I have absolutely enjoyed this. We have so much synergy in just how we move through life, which has been so fun to uncover. I know you don't have social media, but I know you do have your website, so if people wanted to look you up online, where would they go to find you?

Speaker 2:

Yes, it is optoutfamilycom, and that site just exists as a resource for anything that I couldn't put in the book. So there are scripts to download, there are screen-free swaps, there are habits to try all kinds of things, and honestly, I would just say, if there's something in there that you need that's not there, please email me so I can make it for you. I will. This is our mission. It's a family project.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, anything that anyone needs just let me know Fabulous and Erin's book is the Opt-Out Family. It's hit and shelves June 11th. Run to get a copy. It's really good guys. It's an enjoyable read. It's not a slog like some of these books. It's so fun to read, it's easy to read, but it's also got a lot of good stuff in there. So, erin, thank you again. I appreciate your time and thanks for the inspiration. I have a few changes I'd like to make myself after this episode. So keep on inspiring and thanks for putting this out into the world.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, Jill. It was such a pleasure to chat with you.