Old Fashioned On Purpose

The Veterinary Herbalist's Guide to Holistic Animal Care

• Jill Winger • Season 14 • Episode 20

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Herbs have been used to doctor animals for millennia, but sadly it's tough to find information on how to use them in our modern age. 

Today I'm so thrilled to be joined by Dr. Patrick Jones-- a veterinarian, naturopath, and herbalist who knows this topic inside and out. Dr. Jones sheds light on the complexities of herbal dosages, species-specific risks, and the profound impact these treatments can have on our animals from household pets to livestock.

 He packed this interview with loads of practical, actionable information and you'll walk away with tons of ideas on how to naturally treat your cows, goats, chickens, dogs, and more!

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS:

  • Why does there seem to be a void in information about using herbs for animals
  • How you can use herbs for different types of livestock
  • How herbs work vs. modern medicine
  • Talking about daily supplement herbs
  • How to get animals to take herbs
  • Figuring out dosages 
  • Common ailments in farm animals (and how to treat them)
  • Get instant access by growing your own herbs
  • Foundational top five herbs 
  • Favorite veterinary herbal success story

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE:

Learn more about Dr. Patrick Jones here: https://homegrownherbalist.net/

Find Dr. Patrick Jones videos here: https://www.youtube.com/@HomeGrownHerbalist

A BIG THANKS TO OUR SPONSOR!

The Modern Homesteading Conference will be held in Coeur D'alene, ID June 28 & 29th, 2024. Tickets are still available! https://modernhomesteading.com/

OTHER HELPFUL RESOURCES FOR YOUR HOMESTEAD:


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Jill Wing:

So one of my favorite things about this podcast is that it gives me the opportunity to dig into topics that I find personally interesting, and I get to do it and have you guys listen along at the same time. And one of my favorite ways to find topics for the show is to look into the areas of the homesteading world or the old fashioned living world that haven't been covered a lot. I like to dig into those things that have a little bit of information floating around the internet, but you can't really get the good media information as easily, and today's topic absolutely fits into that bucket. It's a topic I've been interested in for years, but it's been a little tricky to find really reputable advice and the topic is drumroll, please.

Jill Wing:

Herbalism and animals. So you know I have a lot of animals I don't even know how many at this point I've lost count and I'm always looking for ways to help my care of them be more holistic, more natural, more common sense. But it's really hard to sort through that information sometimes. So today I am very excited to be joined by Dr Jones. He is a practicing veterinarian, a traditional naturopath and clinical herbalist, so that's a combination you don't see a lot of, and that's why I am so excited for this conversation. For many years he's seen the power of herbs bless the lives of his veterinary patients and his human clients, so he has some incredible resources homegrownherbalistnet. He has a herbalism school. We're going to get into all of that today. But, dr Jones, welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Jones:

Oh, it's great to be here, Jill. I look forward to visiting with you. It's a fun topic.

Jill Wing:

It is and it's. I mean I just don't feel like there's a lot of information, at least not as much as there is around other topics. So I think it's a hole in the knowledge base and I'm excited to do a little bit to help fill that today with my audience. Yeah, so is this something from your perspective? Obviously you have much more familiarity with the topic than I do. Is this something that has just not been addressed as much? Am I just not looking in the right areas? Like why do we see kind of that void with herbalism and animals? I mean, it's starting to pick up with humans. It feels like a bit more, but sometimes I feel like we're just forgetting that side of the world with our four-legged friends.

Dr. Jones:

Yeah, there's not a lot of stuff in this modern time. Ironically historically, there's mountains of stuff. Uh, in in this modern time, uh, ironically historically, there's mountains of stuff. I mean, some of the oldest documents written. You know that we have actual copies of um from china, from india, even european stuff, uh, that's thousands of years old was way more heavily based on animal and veterinary applications of herbs than it was on human herbs, you know. So I guess you know if your kid died, that was sad, you could make another one, but if your cow died, everyone died, you know.

Jill Wing:

Yeah, right, right yeah.

Dr. Jones:

So, priorities?

Jill Wing:

I guess yeah.

Dr. Jones:

I think I think a lot of herbal medicine actually sprang from its use originally in veterinary applications. So but yeah, there's not a lot of resources currently, which is too bad, because they really are extraordinarily effective. I mean, I used them all day, every day, for decades in my veterinary practice and in many cases, had way better outcomes than I would have had if I was just using pharmaceuticals.

Jill Wing:

Fascinating Now was your practice large animal small animal mixture.

Dr. Jones:

Yeah, I did everything, everything. Okay, I've done literally everything, did a lot of well. Early on I was doing a truly mixed practice. So I was doing, you know, cow-calf beef operations, dairies, swine operations, poultry operations, as well as, you know, dogs and cats. And then I got a little more focused on dairy stuff but was still doing dogs and cats at the same time. And then the last few years of my practice I just did dogs and cats. I tore up my shoulder pretty good and got retired from wrestling cows all days.

Jill Wing:

But it's a hard that's a hard career.

Dr. Jones:

Yeah, yeah.

Jill Wing:

Yeah, okay, I have so many questions, I guess. Just right off the bat, I'm curious is there species, or a species that is easier to use herbs with, or one that's harder, or is it kind of the same across the board?

Dr. Jones:

once you know the principles, you know, it really is very similar across the board. You do have and I'll make one caveat there you have to be very careful using antibiotic herbs in rabbits because or any antibiotic in rabbits, because their gut flora is so critical to their survival that if you beat them up they really can be in trouble in a hurry. But even then, the herbal antibiotics are safer than the pharmaceutical antibiotics. Herbal antibiotics are safer than the pharmaceutical antibiotics. But other than that, it really is so similar. People always ask me yeah, but what do I do with my dog? Yeah, but what do I do for my chicken? And honestly, you do the same thing you do for your kid or your grandma. There's really very little difference. Some of the delivery systems are different for getting them in.

Dr. Jones:

But as far as safety, there's a few very specific examples of this plant or that plant. You know, hops in high levels can be a little dangerous for dogs and cats. Garlic in high and long-term levels can be dangerous for dogs and cats. But you know, I mean I can count on one hand the herbs I worry about with other species. Most of the danger, most of the risk comes from dosing, you know, because a two-pound chihuahua needs way less herb than a 200-pound human, you know. And so the highest risk, the highest thing, and it's not even a risk if you think about it at all, but the thing you have to think most about is okay, I have to think like a two pound dosing instead of a 200 pound dosing, but other than that, it's very, very similar.

Jill Wing:

Okay In terms of just how an herbal treatment will work with the body animal or human body versus a conventional pharmaceutical. I know in the little bit I've dabbled with essential oils or things like that herbs, I think sometimes people like me. We come into it with this Western medicine perspective where I take a pill once every six hours and I know I will get a result in this specified amount of time every six hours, and I know I will get a result, you know, in this specified amount of time. In my experience, herbs are a little bit different, and is that your experience as well? Would you agree with that statement or is that just a misunderstanding on our part?

Dr. Jones:

No, well, it depends on the herb. You know, some herbs have a very immediate effect, you know, and do things. I guess there's two big categories of two big groupings, you could say, of times that we use, use herbs. One would be for very acute things. Uh, you know I'm having an asthma attack, uh, and so I take some, you know, bronchodilating herbs uh, gumweed, lobelia, cramp, bark, those kinds of guys, and that's going to be an immediate effect. You know, it's going to open things up.

Dr. Jones:

But for for things that involve, for example, um, infectious disease things, uh, what I say sort of the drum that I beat in the in the homegrown herbalist school is that you should use herbs early, often and after. So if you're fighting a bug, you know, don't wait until you're good and sick to start taking those herbs. Get on it right now, and so that's the early, the often is don't just do it twice a day. You know you should probably be doing it. If you're fighting an infectious process, you should probably do it every three or four hours, you know. And then the after is keep taking them for a couple of days after you feel better so you don't crash again. You know, keep giving your body the resources it's using and appreciating to keep get the job finished. You know so that early, often an after principle, I think, is a really, really fundamental cornerstone to being successful with herbal medicine.

Jill Wing:

Yeah, and I've heard other herbalists echo that. It just feels like, yeah, a little bit, maybe more. The frequency is key there. Versus your typical pharmaceuticals, that makes sense.

Dr. Jones:

Okay, well, and get ahead of the curve.

Dr. Jones:

Yes, you know my wife just as an example. My wife got COVID, I don't know, a year or two ago I don't even remember back in the good old days when COVID was running around crazy. But you know, she started getting a little sick and so I started taking herbs, right, I said you should take some herbs and she said I should, and she didn't. The next day she was a little sicker and I'm still taking my herbs, right, I'm not sick at all. And I says, hon, you should take some herbs. You want me to get some herbs? No, no, I'll get to that.

Dr. Jones:

You know she's an Idaho farm girl, so she's out working and doing things too busy to take care of herself. Well, day three, she's really in trouble. We got a little test. Sure enough, she's positive. You know, and you know, the next day I was sick, but I was only sick for like a day or two, and she was sick for a couple of weeks because, I'd been ahead of the game for three days, you know, and so taking herbs early on for any kind of viral or bacterial thing.

Dr. Jones:

Boy, if you even think you're getting sick, get going on the herbs and knock it out before it gets ahold of you.

Jill Wing:

Absolutely. Well, that brings me to a question. Maybe not so much for animals, well, maybe for animals too. But I know certain herbs at least I've heard, and maybe this is incorrect but if you take them repeatedly over a long period of time, they can lose their potency in your body. So are there herbs that you take like on it as a daily supplement, or are you? Are you just keeping them in your arsenal? Like you said, if you feel like you've been exposed to something, you feel like you're coming down with something, how do you work through that?

Dr. Jones:

Well, there are basically what you would call tonic, nutritive kinds of herbs that you can take. A lot, you know. Like. You know, throw in a spoonful of burdock powder in your smoothie and a spoonful of nettle leaf. That's just the best thing in the world you can do for yourself. You know, feeds you, resolves all kinds of low-grade issues. It's just, you know, really good for you. It supports your liver and your kidneys and everybody's happy Versus. You know I'm not going to take an immune support formula all the time, you know, because that really can become taxing to the body and it gets less effective.

Dr. Jones:

I tell people the rule of thumb. I tell people for humans or animals, if you're on something long-term, you know, if you're taking anti-inflammatories all the time, cause you got arthritis, I don't have a problem with that. If you're taking digestive stuff all the time, you know there's certain digestive things that are just good maintenance tonic things. What I tell people is to take a day off every week or two, you know. Just give your body a break to kind of regroup and then when you come back to it, you know, things seem to work better. Anything that's real taxing. You know ginsengs are wonderful herbs. They're very demanding. You know they require a lot of resources from the body to do all the things that are selling you to do. And so you know, I I say take two or three days off on that one. You know, and and like I said again, especially immune stimulating herbs, I'm not going to take those long-term. You know that'm not going to take those long term. You know that's not something you take long term anyway.

Jill Wing:

Right, that makes sense. Can you get resistance to an herbal antibiotic like you may get resistance with a pharmaceutical antibiotic?

Dr. Jones:

You know it's way harder Jill because they're so much more complicated. Okay, you know penicillin has one chemical in it, amoxicillin has one chemical in it, you know barberry has a dozen, and so it's sort of like if somebody came to my house every day and whacked me with a stick, it wouldn't take me very long to figure out how not to get whacked with that stick. Sure, you know, but if he came with a stick and a gun and a flamethrower and a half dozen other things, it's a little trickier, it's pretty tough to get resistant to that.

Dr. Jones:

I've had a lot of cases over the years where nothing pharmaceutical was touching an infection and I put them on an immune stimulant and something like Barberry or Calendula and it just knocks it out. Because they're so much more complicated, so much more diverse in their approach to killing the bug. Number one and number two the body is way better at using plants than it is at using drugs. Shocking, you know Weird. It's almost like we've been eating them for a really long time. Yeah, who thought?

Jill Wing:

Yeah, it's almost like we've been eating them for a really long time. I'm interrupting this episode for just a second to tell you about a homesteading event that may be near you and, if it is, you definitely got to go. It's the second annual Modern Homestead Conference in Coeur d'Alene, idaho, and before I tell you more, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that I can't attend and I am so bummed I just couldn't make the dates work this year. But the good news is there are a ton of other amazing speakers and experts that you are going to learn so much from. Joel Salatin will be there, lisa from Farmhouse on Boone she's been here on my podcast Homesteading Family Sally Fallon, jess from Roots and Refuge, and tons more. They'll also have Dr Temple Grandin doing a very special talk this year. I got to see her last year and she was amazing. So this two-day event features presentations for both beginner and advanced homesteaders. There's topics like food preservation, seed saving, animal husbandry and processing, fire and homestead preparedness, herbalism, how to build a strong community, and that is just scratching the surface. So if you've never attended an event like this, trust me it's really worth it to make some time and go. You're going to see these things in real life in person, which will fast track your learning so much more. Plus, there's just nothing like getting to rub shoulders with people who are like-minded and doing all the weird and crazy things that you and I like to do. So get your tickets now. They're still for sale and you can grab them over at modernhomesteadingcom. Fascinating, um.

Jill Wing:

Okay, I have a whole bunch of questions I've been writing down. I'm just going to start at the top of the list. You mentioned delivery system and in terms of how you're getting herbs into a body an animal body or human body, what does that look like for animals? Because, I mean, I'm familiar with with humans? You know tinctures and all those things we have salves. Is that what you're? You're following that same path with animals, or is there some that are better than others?

Dr. Jones:

Yeah, you can. Anything that you can use on a human to get herbs into them you could use on an animal, but there's no reason to a lot of times. So basically, it doesn't matter at all for the most part how you get herbs into your body, you know, just like it doesn't matter how you get to work. You know, take a helicopter, ride a camel, ride your bike, you'll get there. Helicopter, ride a camel, ride your bike, you'll get there. You start doing your job right, and so you can take powders. You know, throw them in your smoothie, you can make a tea, you can make a tincture, you can put them in capsules. You know, there's all kinds of ways to get them into your body.

Dr. Jones:

With humans, you'll have better compliance if you're using tinctures and teas, because not everybody can choke down those powders. Yeah, but with animals I used almost exclusively powders, unless I was doing something that was a time-sensitive, emergency thing. You know, if I'm giving cayenne for a dog in shock which is the best thing in the world to do for a dog in shock I want that working right now. You know, if I'm using lobelia for an asthma attack, I don't want to spend 15 minutes making a tea.

Dr. Jones:

I want to use a tincture, so it's working right now. But otherwise, for animals, I almost always used powders and I would just give them the dry powder and if it was a dog or a cat, mix it with a little wet food. If it was a horse or a cow or a chicken, you know, throw it in the feed and down it goes, you know.

Jill Wing:

Okay.

Dr. Jones:

Sometimes, if I wanted to make sure they got the dose, I'd put the powder in a big old syringe, like a catheter tip syringe. You know dosing syringe. Mix it with some water and shoot it in them, you know, sure, but for the most part, especially dogs and cats, I just mix the powders with the food, with wet food, just so it sticks. Cats can be a little fussy, and so sometimes I do use a tincture in a cat because you can't get them to eat the powder. Sure, but dogs are dummies, you know. Once in a while you get a little Pomeranian and doesn't think it's food, you know.

Jill Wing:

Yeah, the rest of them are just like Labrador. Yeah, I'll eat anything, even bad things. Yep, yep, that's how mine are. Yeah, yeah, okay, you mentioned the importance of dosing. How can the average person like me get to the point where we know how to dose, feel comfortable with dosing? I mean, I know you have your resources. Is that the best place to go? What do you kind of suggest so we can learn that?

Dr. Jones:

Well, if you don't want to remember anything, you can go to homegrownherbalistnet and every product page. There's a little tab that says info and dosing and there's dosages for everything from a Chihuahua to a draft horse, you know or a human.

Dr. Jones:

We're kind of in between those two extremes. No-transcript, and I don't mean like a level, carefully measured teaspoon, I just mean a spoonful of stuff. Yeah, If he's a 30 or 40 pound dog, do a half of that and just go down from there. A really tiny little dog is going to get an eighth of a teaspoon. A great big dog's going to a really big dog might get two if he's like a St Bernard, you know. But a normal big dog's going to get a teaspoon and just kind of go between there. You know, it's just a half a teaspoon dog or a quarter teaspoon dog. The margins of safety are really wide on herbs. I mean, I can count on one hand the time that I had any issue with herbs having side effects and it was usually because they were being combined with a pharmaceutical.

Jill Wing:

Yes, yes.

Dr. Jones:

Which is another important point. Don't take herbs with pharmaceuticals unless you know what you're doing, and don't take them if you're pregnant or you're nursing, or if animal is pregnant or nursing, unless you know that that herb is safe, because some of them aren't safe for pregnancy and some of them, even though they're safe perfectly safe for mom, are very dangerous to the baby who's nursing, you know, and so you have to have some information there. But other than that, other than drugs, pregnancy and safety margins are really wide for the most part.

Jill Wing:

Okay, yeah, awesome. I'm just thinking. I'd love for you to give us a little bit of a rundown of some of the common ailments that you see most in farm animals, because my audience we have a lot of chickens, we have cattle, we have some hogs. What are some of the big issues that you see, and how do you like to treat those issues with herbs? Okay, well, it's a big, broad question, sort of.

Dr. Jones:

So take it where you want to take it, it made me go to school for eight years. You know that Exactly, I know. Just go to school Duh. No, that's silly too, but they didn't teach me any herb stuff in veterinary school Right, I'm sure they didn't.

Jill Wing:

I'm sure they didn't.

Dr. Jones:

Anyway, well, I don't know Just like. Well, let's look at scours, Okay.

Jill Wing:

Yeah.

Dr. Jones:

Yeah, that's a big deal.

Dr. Jones:

Yes, you know if you've got a calf with scours or you got pigs with scours or a brother-in-law with scours, you know, whatever it is, that's something that herbs can be really, really effective at helping. And there's basically two kinds of actions that I use for that. One is I use astringent herbs that dry things up, and the other thing I use well, three, I guess. So I use astringent things like sage is probably my favorite one, really really good for scours. The other thing that's really good for scours are herbs that calm the muscles of the gut, because that's why you have diarrhea it's because the guts are hyperactive, water's not getting reabsorbed right, and so herbs that are the best herb in the world for that is angelica seed. I mean, I love angelica seed for that, but any of the mints are good too. They calm the gut nerves. Chamomile is good for that. Calms the gut, um, just to relax those muscles so things can hang around long enough to get some water pulled out okay and then there's, you know there's antibiotic herbs too.

Dr. Jones:

You know you can use barberry or hops or things like that organ grape if it's a bacterial enteritis. You know you can use barberry or hops or things like that organ grape if it's a bacterial enteritis, you know. But the main thing is to slow it down so that you're not, because the primary risk to that animal is not the bug, usually it's dehydration.

Dr. Jones:

Yes, it's going to kill them yes uh, you know, sometimes the bugs are a big deal too e coli and things can be a big deal too, but um, and and honestly, jill, the most important thing, you know I used to I mean I was a consultant for big dairies and big swine operations and stuff and you know the most important thing to do is hygiene. You know if that that calf was not born with massive amounts of E coli in its gut? You know that calf was not born with massive amounts of E coli in its gut. Yeah, you know. So what happened?

Dr. Jones:

You know well, he's got nowhere clean to sleep, you know, yeah, and having things clean for in the calving area in the farrowing area really important to have that be a clean place, lots of clean straw, and the other thing for respiratory infections same thing ventilation. You know, make sure there's good airflow and good air movement and you'll have way less disease. It's way better to prevent the thing from happening in the first place than to try and fix it later you know, yes, absolutely.

Dr. Jones:

So that's you know, that's sort of a drum we can beat too is how to keep things right, keep the bugs out of them in the first place, right?

Jill Wing:

right and I, yeah. I think that that's what I like about some of the more sustainable regenerative ag is they're looking at. Okay, how do we not make the better drugs? How do we just not have to have this issue be an? Issue in the first place, which is, I think it's like so many, but like a multi-pronged approach to all of this. Um, it's just more than one one piece.

Dr. Jones:

They've done studies on the flora, the bacterial flora of cow guts. And when you confine them and feed them tons of you know high carbohydrate corn and stuff to fatten them up on a feedlot, the the E coli levels go through the roof, yes, but if they're out on pasture they don't. Yep, you know same thing with chickens. Chickens that live on pasture have very little E coli, you know. If you want to watch something hysterical, go back, go to YouTube and find an old Julia Child video of her preparing chickens to eat. And if we did that the way she did it today, we'd all die.

Jill Wing:

Right, right, yes.

Dr. Jones:

But her chickens were coming off a farm where they were puttering around until it was time to harvest them.

Jill Wing:

Yeah.

Dr. Jones:

You know, and the E coli risk was almost zero for her.

Jill Wing:

Yeah, it's fascinating Something else to think about. Yes, so many things, so many things. How about mastitis on a milk cow?

Dr. Jones:

What would you do? So mastitis? There's two big categories of mastitis and we could talk about mastitis a lot. In fact, I used to get paid a lot of money to talk a lot about mastitis Cool. There's two, as a consultant there's contagious mastitis and there's environmental mastitis.

Dr. Jones:

Okay, so environmental mastitis is, you know, you milk the cow and while her tea canals are still open, or if your milking machines are too powerful and they've sucked out the ends a tiny bit and she goes lays in a sloppy pan, she gets bacteria entering the udder, you know, and now you've got an E coli mastitis or salmonella, klebsiella there's different bugs that can do it. Those organisms make a really severe mastitis. I mean, that bag is hard as a rock and that cow has got a high fever and she's really sick and really in trouble. Ironically, oftentimes by the time she looks really bad, all the bugs are dead. Oh, interesting, okay.

Dr. Jones:

And so the main thing with her at that point is the toxins that the dying bacteria have released. E coli is like a grenade, you know, doesn't bother you very much until you kill it, and then it releases all kinds of endotoxins and that's what's causing all that inflammation stuff. And so the most important thing to do with that gal is to milk, milk, milk, milk, milk and get all that stuff out of her. In fact, some people, you know, in the old days they put a calf on her, you know, and the calf doesn't get the stuff from the milk, the infection, because, like I said, the bugs are mostly dead.

Jill Wing:

Yeah, sure.

Dr. Jones:

But that constant milking, massaging the udder, things like that. But you can also use, you know, anti-inflammatory herbs. You know, like like burdock, like turmeric, like you know yucca, things like that can help with the inflammation. You can use antibiotic herbs if you think there's something going on. There's no reason not to you know, so again, herbs like barberry, Oregon, grape, calendula, echinacea, for immune stimulation. You know the same things you would do if you had a bacterial infection.

Jill Wing:

Okay.

Dr. Jones:

You could also do comfrey. You can put comfrey tincture in a little propylene glycol and inject that into the udder and and sometimes that has some nice anti-inflammatory effects. Mostly we're trying to get that stuff out. Uh, the other critical thing is to get her drinking a lot of water. You know, um, and so you know one of the first thing I would do when I had a cow that had a severe, you know, environmental mastitis, I'd give them hypertonic saline ivy, just extra salty salt water okay and it would make her real thirsty and she'd walk over the trough and drink 20 gallons of water, you know, um.

Dr. Jones:

So you know, getting fluid into her is really important too For the. So that's environmental mastitis. Contagious mastitis is bugs that are, you know, bacteria that are parasites to the udder, and they get transmitted by poor milking practices. Okay, you know, like the guy's using the same washcloth to clean all the udders, you know, or he's not keeping his hands clean, or or he's getting milk all over his hands and not hosing them off before he goes to the next cow. Those organisms are the big ones are Staph aureus and Streptococcus agalacti, and so those are actually transmissible through poor milking technique. And so, again, prevention is the key.

Dr. Jones:

It's a really good idea, if you ever get a mastitis case, to get the milk cultured and see what the bug is. If it's Staph aureus or strep, milk her last, you know, milk her at the beginning and put that machine on everybody else, you know, milk her last. And so those organisms strep is easy to kill. It's, you know, it just lives in the milk and you can use antibiotic herbs and immune stimulating herbs and kill that one. Staph is harder because staph makes little micro abscesses in the tissue and you can. You can clean it up, but next week, once you get stressed, the little abscesses break and it's really, really hard to get antibiotics whether they're herbs or drugs into little abscesses, because that's the whole point of an abscess to keep stuff away from it. You know.

Jill Wing:

Right right.

Dr. Jones:

And so again, you know, immune stimulating herbs, antibiotic herbs. I have a formula called immune support. I have a formula called bug buster. Go look at those and look at the plants in those. Okay, you don't have to use those formulas, just use those plants.

Jill Wing:

Yeah.

Dr. Jones:

Yeah, but basically that's the technique for the contagious mastitis is to do a lot of immune support and a lot of antibiotic herbs and if it is a contagious mastitis, be really careful how you milk that cow so you don't give it to the rest of the girls or whatever. So you know, do something else with her, yeah, but yeah, so that's kind of the deal in mastitis. That's sheep, cows, okay, across the board. Sure, your Excellent.

Jill Wing:

Okay, I'm curious about some chicken ideas, because I will be the first to confess, I don't really doctor chickens and if something happens with chicken it's just like sorry buddy, like I don't know what to do with you. There are no vets in our area that do anything with chickens, like if I called our local vet and asked about a chicken, they'd laugh. So is there, give me some ideas of maybe some common chicken ailments and how we may be able to help them with herbs, because I'm really bad at this.

Dr. Jones:

Yeah Well, you know there's a long history of herb use with chickens. I mean, we've got Colonel Sanders, We've got Shake and Bake.

Jill Wing:

There you go, they go together so well, I know.

Dr. Jones:

If what you're doing doesn't work, you know you can use those other herbs. There's a backup plan.

Dr. Jones:

If what you're doing doesn't work. You know you can use those other herbs. There's a backup plan. No, so with chickens, the biggest thing with chickens is probably respiratory viruses. You know that's what knocks out most of them, and fortunately we have some herbs that are really great at knocking out respiratory viruses.

Dr. Jones:

And again, basically with any infection, the way I'm going to approach it is I'm going to do immune stimulation and I'm going to do antimicrobial herbs. You know so. If it's a bug, I'm going to use antibiotic herbs. If it's a bacterial infection, if it's a virus, I'm going to use antiviral herbs with my immune stimulation. Okay, and so you know the same things. You know what do you do with your kids when they're getting a respiratory infection? You give them elderberries, right, you give them immune-stimulating herbs. Like you know well, elders, immune-stimulating too. But echinacea, astragalus, olive leaf all those things are good immune stimulants and a dozen others. Elderberry's good Mullein leaf actually has some really remarkable antiviral effects. Everybody talks about it being good cough suppressant and a pretty good expectorant, but it also, coincidentally, uh, has some very specific activity against coronaviruses, influenza viruses interesting, it's almost like god knew what he was doing yeah, yeah and so fascinating mullein leaf's great um, pine needle also very effective for knocking out respiratory and coronaviruses.

Dr. Jones:

inhibits attachment of the viruses, inhibits replication of the viruses um, basically the same herbs you would use for respiratory stuff for a human. And so with chickens, what I do is, if they're eating a grain feed, I spray it with a little water bottle to make it sticky, and then I throw the powder in it.

Jill Wing:

So the powder sticks to the herbs. Oh, that's smart.

Dr. Jones:

I mean so the powder sticks to the feed. That's handy. Okay, I don't love. People always say, well, can you just put it in the water? And I say, sure, but if it doesn't taste good, they're not going to drink the water.

Jill Wing:

Right.

Dr. Jones:

And if they're sick and not drinking the water. Now you really got trouble, you know, and so I prefer to put it on the feed top, dress the feed. Not that chickens are great at tasting things. Anyway, their liquors aren't super advanced. Sure, sure, sure, sure, um, but that's what I do. Or you can use fresh herbs. Chickens will always go for that too, yeah you know, especially if they don't have access to pasture and stuff. If you throw anything green in a chicken pen, they're going to eat it.

Dr. Jones:

Yeah, you know right so you can do that and, like I said the white, the margins of safety are very wide, okay, so we don't worry too much um same thing with goats and horses and cows. Fresh, fresh herbs are great. If they don't want to eat the fresh herbs if it's a cow or a horse, another trick for getting herbs into them is you can take an apple and core it and pack the powdered herbs in there and hand it to them. Wolf that down.

Jill Wing:

That's smart, okay, yep.

Dr. Jones:

So that's a trick for the big guys.

Jill Wing:

Yeah.

Dr. Jones:

And it's good if you've trained them to do that, you, and it's good if you've trained them to do that, you know, if you go out there twice a week with a few apples and they come running because they see mom with the apple bucket, you know, then that's a nice way to sneak herbs in. You can also mix it with for guys, for horses and cows, you can mix it with some molasses, the powder, and syringe it into them or something you know. Or mix it with the feed. Okay, but yeah, respiratory stuff again with chickens, immune stimulating stuff, antiviral stuff. I have a. There's a formula on the website. There's that immunity support formula and I'm not, you know, pushing the formulas. You can. You can just look at them and use those herbs.

Dr. Jones:

But you know, those herbs are great. There's a formula called Shoo flu s-h-o-o f-l-o-o, because those aren't words, right, yeah, I know how that.

Dr. Jones:

I know that game, I know that game, you know, look at that one. That's a good antiviral uh formula. But I mean, yeah, antiviral for me, for us, yeah, um, but that's what I do. And then they, you know, it's the same stuff I'm using on people, you know, um, but so for chickens, horses, you know, goats, one thing to be aware of that's a little bit important for goats is if you're giving herbs to goats, um, you have to be careful, cause they'll chase you and knock you down for seconds. You know they really like this Right.

Jill Wing:

That is a good thank you for that warning. That is a very true danger with the goat, with the goat population. Those are the best weeds I ever had exactly more, more, more. Yeah, goats, freaking goats, um okay, so now I feel empowered.

Dr. Jones:

The next time I have a sick chicken, I may actually try some things instead of letting nature take its course, which and and if it's really really sick, you know you can use tinctures on them and a tincture goes for a chicken's three drops, sure you know? I mean they're just little bitty guys. Yeah, three to five. Um, but honestly, just putting a little moisture on that grain and then throwing the powder on so it kind of sticks is a good way to get it into them.

Jill Wing:

Yeah, if they're that's a idea, okay, I'm going to do it. I'm going to get ready. Yes, yes, I have a lot and we have a lot of them all in here, and so I'm just going to go get some of that and grab that, and that's another really smart thing is to have a lot of stuff around.

Dr. Jones:

Yes, I mean, grow your own stuff. You know, that's one of that's. Another thing I really push a lot in the school is learn to grow these plants and have them around so that you have things on hand. Yes, you know, and you can just grab a handful of them and throw it to them. You can grab a handful of this and throw it to them, you know. Yeah, that's really valuable too.

Jill Wing:

Do you like to grow most of your own? Are you buying them? Do you buy them? Do you do buy them? Do you have a favorite source?

Dr. Jones:

Well, we, you know, we try and grow as much stuff as we can as a business, you know, and I really can't dig enough burdock to keep up with how much burdock I sell. You know that's not going to happen, right, and so we're really careful to only buy stuff from, you know, people we trust. But growing your own, if you're, if you're a real person, not running a business, growing your own is absolutely the way to go. I mean, we had so, just as an example, on our little place, and we've I've moved since, but the house that I was in before it was a two acre property, right, one of those acres was my house and the vet clinic and a parking lot, you know, and the other acre I wasn't really using at all, it was just wild.

Dr. Jones:

And so I would say maybe, maybe a quarter acre of stuff that I was seriously growing things, and we had over 150 species of medicinals on that property. Oh, wow, you know, and, and the reason was that every branch, I mean every tree, and we had over 150 species of medicinals on that property, oh, wow, wow. And the reason was that every branch, I mean every tree, every bush, every flower, everything on that place was a medicinal plant, all of our landscaping was medicinal plants, yeah, and it looked just as pretty as anybody else's place, sure, but it was all medicinal stuff.

Dr. Jones:

I mean, even the trees and stuff, all medicinal stuff. And so you can have way more medicinals on your place than you think. You don't have to have a half an acre big garden. Put them in your flower beds, you know. Have your pretty shrub next to your front door, be a medicinal, you know, so that you have all those resources. And then you know, whenever you know we raised. I had 15 kids, you know. 11 of them were adopted. Wow, that's amazing. People always ask if we had a TV set, you know.

Jill Wing:

Yeah, I know All those questions Only four were homemade. Yeah, there you go.

Dr. Jones:

Anyway. But you know, when my kids were sick they'd go out to the garden and grab something.

Jill Wing:

Yes.

Dr. Jones:

You know that's how it worked. And you know, if you got stung by a bee, you went out and grabbed some plantain and chewed it up and put it on the bee sting. If you had a bellyache, you went out and grabbed a handful of parsley and ate the parsley. I mean, they knew what to do and it was just sort of an go to the herb cupboard and grab the powder and throw it in their juice and choke it down, or they'd make a tincture, you know, um and so just having stuff on hand is really, really, really beneficial.

Jill Wing:

I agree, cause I think the worst feeling is when I know for me, I'll do a little research like I'll need an herb for something. I'll do a little research, figure out what I need, and then I'm like I have to either drive to town, I have to wait for it to get shipped here, and then I just by then I forget, or I lose interest or whatever. So I agree that having that baseline Speaking of baseline, I know there's so many options and this might be a really hard question, but for someone just starting out, who's maybe overwhelmed by all the options for themselves or for their, could pick five herbs to have as, like, your foundational medicine cabinet, what would you pick?

Dr. Jones:

so if I've been asked that question so many times, and there's 84 plants on that list yeah, I'm sure absolutely have to have.

Jill Wing:

Yes I had a feeling you might say that, or it depends. No, five is great, you really can.

Dr. Jones:

if you really knew I and I tell people if you really really knew 10 plants, you could solve most of the stuff that's going to happen in your family. Okay, really. So five herbs let's see for veterinary stuff, because we're talking about vet stuff.

Jill Wing:

Yeah, let's talk about vet, yep.

Dr. Jones:

I would have comfrey, because I've used comfrey on all kinds of really horrific wounds in veterinary cases. You know horses that do horrible things to themselves.

Jill Wing:

Horses always do horrible things to themselves Do dumb things to themselves. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jones:

Nobody can hurt themselves like a horse.

Jill Wing:

That is so true.

Dr. Jones:

Comfrey's phenomenal for healing wounds topically and internally. So I'd have comfrey, I would have calendula, that's really easy to grow.

Jill Wing:

Oh, and, by the way, on the comfrey, get the Russian comfrey.

Dr. Jones:

Sometimes they call it Bocking 14, B-O-C-K-I-N-G 14. It's a sterile hybrid, and so it can't reproduce by seed, and so if you buy regular comfrey and plant it, you're going to be up to your waist in comfrey everywhere in a year.

Jill Wing:

Okay, good to know, good to know, good to know.

Dr. Jones:

Yeah, so get the Russian comfrey. Okay, anyway, comfrey is great for healing wounds. Calendula is great for a lot of things. It's antibiotic. It has some specific antiviral properties for herpes viruses, so it's good for cold sores and shingles and chicken pox and things. Um, it's, uh, anti-inflammatory a really great plant. So calendula is good and the flowers the medicine. So you know, um, I would have, uh, an elderberry bush. Yes, for respiratory stuff, I would have a mullein. How many is that? Four, that's four. What else would I want? I would have. I would get a good antispasmodic. So maybe some angelica seed or cramp bark.

Jill Wing:

Okay.

Dr. Jones:

For your scours things.

Jill Wing:

Yep.

Dr. Jones:

And every other and asthma and muscle back spasms and everything else. Mullin's also a good expectorant. We talked about Mullin for respiratory stuff. There's five. That's easy, that's good. Okay, I've got just as a shameless commercial announcement, I've got two books that I've written, oh good, one's called the Homegrown Herbalist, okay, and that's got about 30 plants and to get in that book they had to be really easy to grow anywhere and good looking most of them.

Jill Wing:

Nice, that's a bonus.

Dr. Jones:

That's a bonus, yeah, so that's 30 you can pick from. And then the other book is the homegrown herbalist guide to medicinal weeds, and so even if you only plant five, I promise you have 15 other really good ones in your yard, you know. Yes, so look at those two as resources for plants that you might prioritize excellent.

Jill Wing:

I mean, we'll put those in the show notes, guys, because, um, yeah, I'm all. Yeah, the whole foraging the weed thing is a whole. Another fascination of mine um, what can you use in your local area? I think that's such a cool library of knowledge to build.

Dr. Jones:

We can do one on that some other day when we have an hour we totally should do.

Jill Wing:

You're definitely gonna have to come back. I hope you've realized that by now.

Dr. Jones:

This is not our only conversation yeah yes, yes I'll tell you, it's very, very empowering. You think about it, if you can walk past a lot, a vacant lot full of weeds, and see 10 edibles and 15 medicinals. Yeah, think about it.

Jill Wing:

Yeah, you know, I mean, that's life-changing it is you really needed some stuff, so yeah, every time I learn, you just get to know our, just our native plants, even if I don't always know what they're for yet. Just like, learning their names is such a powerful experience, just like, because it's so easy to blank that out, we just don't pay attention and you can live in an area for decades and be like no idea what you're walking on or walking here exactly. So I just like, hey, I know your name now. Nice to meet you. It just is cool, it just it feels right, it right. Yeah, so we are running up on time. So, as we close and we really could talk for very much, very much longer, so you will have to come back I'd love to know your favorite veterinary herbal success story. Do you have one where you're just like you loved that? What happened with the result of the treatment?

Dr. Jones:

Some of the most dramatic cases I've done are wound cases. Those are the most fun because they're so, you know. But we had a, just as an example, a really amazing story we had. I had a dog years and years and years ago named Max, and Max was a Labrador retriever and I don't know if you know this about Labradors, but they don't actually sleep at night. They actually lay there and think what dumb thing could I do?

Jill Wing:

to them. Yes, amen, yep.

Dr. Jones:

Anyway, max was in the back of a pickup tied up, which is a really important. That's a good idea to tie up your dog.

Jill Wing:

Yeah, but he had too much rope which is a bad idea, yeah.

Dr. Jones:

And so he went over the side and got tangled up with the back tire and it took off all the flesh off his back leg and about a quarter of the bone he had exposed bone marrow. The owner was drunk, went home, saw what kind of shape he was and went on a three-day drinking binge, you know. So I got the dog four days in it was actually the guy's sister that brought him in and he's got a fever of 106 or so, which is, you know that, close to where your brain starts to melt, yes, which is very hard to assess in a laboratory retriever.

Jill Wing:

I'm sure I mean, if your schnauzer's brain melts, you can tell. You're going to offend all the lab owners here. I'm going to get emails over this. We like labs.

Dr. Jones:

I love labs.

Jill Wing:

Here's our official statement. We like labs, okay, continue.

Dr. Jones:

I do like labs Anyway super high fever, almost catatonic, I mean very, very, almost not responsive. But I pinched his toe and he pulled his leg back and I said, okay, if you know where you're, if you know you have a foot, you can keep it, otherwise, okay, cut it off yeah, you know, and I did herbs on him.

Dr. Jones:

And well, first of all I put him on a big gun antibiotic because he's got sepsis and osteomyelitis. I mean he's going to die. You know, the antibiotics did nothing. Next day I put him on another big gun antibiotic, iv nothing. And I'm thinking, holy cow, how come these? Antibiotics aren't getting into this infected bone marrow and the little voice in my head says because all the circulation of that bone marrow is out on the tire, you know there's no circulation into that bone.

Dr. Jones:

And so I said, oh, I got to start thinking like an herbalist and I got some calendula and some golden seal powder herb, mixed it with some water and made a paste and smeared it into that open bone marrow, gave him a big dose of echinacea and 12 hours later his fever's gone. He wants something to eat Wow, you know, yeah. And 12 hours later his fever's gone. He wants something to eat wow, you know, yeah, uh. And then I the rest of the wound management was comfrey and you know things like that to accelerate the healing. But I got an email about 12 years later with a picture of max with his old gray muzzle. You know, just saying hey, old gray muzzle. You know, just saying hey, we just wanted to let you know old Max passed away.

Dr. Jones:

He ran on that leg all day every day chasing rainbows, happy as a clam, you know, and we'd adopted him out to somebody else, but you know I've had a lot of cases like that. If you want to see some fun and with humans too some really graphic, horrible wound cases. If you want to see some fun, and with humans too, some really graphic, horrible wound cases If you want to see some fun cases, go to the website, go to homegrownherbalistnet and go to the blog and do a search for wound or something and you'll find that there's all kinds of wound cases and I show the progression, you know, over the time period, but we've had a lot of really those, the time period, but we've had a lot of really those are the most fun cases because they're so dramatic.

Dr. Jones:

You can see it, yeah, yeah. But you know I've also had a lot of cases of, you know, fevers that weren't responsive to antibiotics, gut problems, I mean. You know you do it all day, every day, and you see a lot of cool stuff but yeah but the wounds look the coolest in the blog article.

Jill Wing:

Absolutely. I mean, it's all about the blog article. It's the internet age, that's right. It's all the visuals. Um, I know I said that was my last question. I lied. I have one more selfish question that, when you were talking about wounds, what would you suggest for proud flesh in horses? Would you go for comfrey in that situation?

Dr. Jones:

So comfrey accelerates cell division. So on a proud flesh on horses, you'd want to first have a vet come out and cut that off, okay, and then if you use comfrey it'll heal it over. But you don't want to. You want to get rid of the naughty stuff before you start. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, Make it a clean wound again. And naughty stuff before you start. Okay, that makes sense.

Dr. Jones:

Yeah, make it a clean wound again. And then yeah, absolutely Okay, and we have you know again wound management. That's something else we could talk about all day. But yeah. I have a formula called poultice, but the big, the big rockstar in that is comfrey, you know, but it's got some calendula for an antibiotic, it's got a little cayenne to stimulate things, it's got some plantain for pulling toxins and junk out of the wound, but it's mostly comfrey. Okay, but really really a phenomenal plant for healing stuff up.

Jill Wing:

Yes.

Dr. Jones:

Don't use it on puncture wounds. That's the only caveat.

Jill Wing:

Because it will close over too fast. Yeah, close over too fast Now.

Dr. Jones:

Because it will close over too fast. Yeah, close over too fast. Now you got an abscess yeah, but any other kind of wound? Comfrey is my first grab.

Jill Wing:

Okay, good to know. I'm going to go. I'm going to plant some. I think I can grow it here. I'll figure it out. So this was so enlightening. Thank you for your time so very much, and I will have you back if you're willing. I'm going to give you a shout out for your website. Let me know if I said it wrong. Homegrownherbalistnet. Everyone, go check out the website. There's a ton of information there. There's also information about the Homegrown Herbalist School and then the two books Homegrown Herbalist the book and then Homegrown Herbalist Medicinal Weeds. Is that? Did I get those right?

Dr. Jones:

Yeah. Guide to Medicinal Weeds, Guide to Both those books are on the site.

Jill Wing:

Awesome. Any other resources or you want people to check out, in particular? Or are those, the main ones, no that'll keep them busy.

Dr. Jones:

Look at the blog.

Jill Wing:

Yes, and the blog we also have a YouTube video.

Dr. Jones:

I mean a YouTube channel.

Jill Wing:

With videos.

Dr. Jones:

yes, and there's videos on it. Not everybody's YouTube has a channel that has videos.

Jill Wing:

Yeah, on YouTube, it's just Homegrown.

Dr. Jones:

Herbalist. So yeah, on YouTube it's just Homegrown Herbalist. So if you do a search for Homegrown Herbalist, you'll find a lot of it. There's a bazillion plant videos and all kinds of other things Awesome.

Jill Wing:

Sweet. All right, you did a good job keeping your branding cohesive, so we can remember that and be able to find you everywhere, all righty Well, thank you again for your time. I can't wait to publish this and let everyone listen in, because I know they're going to get a ton of good stuff out of it.

Dr. Jones:

So I appreciate it. It was delightful to visit with you. Thanks for having me. Thank you.