S13 E17: How to Make Your Own Probiotics

While there are many ways to squirrel away food for later, one of the most old-fashioned options is fermentation. However, this method is often shrouded in mystery... Is it really safe? What if it tastes weird? What if you don't have a root cellar? How do fermented foods compare to probiotics? 

Wild fermentation revivalist Jamie Powell joins me in this podcast episode to answer all these questions and more!

Learn more about Jamie Powell here: https://linktr.ee/Wildandartfullyme

Learn more about Genuine Beef Co. here: https://genuinebeefco.com/

While supplies last, get 15% off our Genuine Beef Freezer Filler Special! Learn more here: https://www.theprairiehomestead.com/freezer

Order my NEW book Old-Fashioned on Purpose now and get exclusive bonuses! http://oldfashionedbook.com/

Have a message you want to share with the world? Apply to be a guest on the Old-Fashioned on Purpose podcast here: https://www.theprairiehomestead.com/podcast-guest-application

Weekly musings from my homestead: http://theprairiehomestead.com/letter

My essays on an old-fashioned life: www.prairiephilosophy.com

My homesteading tutorials & recipes: www.theprairiehomestead.com

Our Wyoming-raised, grass-finished beef: http://genuinebeefco.com

Jill on Twitter: http://twitter.com/homesteader

Jill on Instagram: @jill.winger

Jill on Facebook: http://facebook.com/theprairiehomestead

Transcript

Jill: 0:00

Hey friends, welcome back to the Old Fashioned On Purpose podcast. So this time of year, as we roll into the latter months, we all start to think more about food preservation. And that can come in many forms, whether you're tucking things away in cold storage in a root cellar or a basement like me you're canning, you're freezing. And one of the most old fashioned and time honored methods of preservation that I don't think gets the press that it deserves is fermentation. So we've talked about it briefly here and there on the podcast, but it's been a while since we've really delved into it. And so I wanted to come at this topic from a fresh perspective. So I'm so excited to have Jamie Powell joining me today. She is a wild fermentation revivalist. She has a book. She has all sorts of content around this. And I can't think of anyone better to talk about fermenting all the things. So welcome, Jamie.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 0:53

Thank you so much for having me.

Jill: 0:55

Yeah, I'm so excited for this conversation. I have definitely dabbled in fermentation over the years in various forms, but I still feel like it's one of those areas of the kitchen where I, I kind of stay in my, my ruts of what I'm comfortable with. And I'm not really good at. Getting out of that. So I'm hoping you, you know, you can kind of inspire me to try something new today.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 1:15

Absolutely.

Jill: 1:16

So I love that you call yourself a wild fermentation revivalist. How do you define that? Kind of what does that mean to you?

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 1:22

So, I take on the responsibility of bringing back that old fashioned, ancient charm of preservation, right? And by way of wild fermentation. So, I teach people all about it and how we can even get a jar of probiotics. with my recipes in less than seven days.

Jill: 1:44

That's, yeah, that's impressive. Cause I know we look at some of the recipes or some of the older recipes, it's like many weeks, which can be intimidating. And it's also you don't get that instant gratification, which sometimes can be a good thing. But when you, I think when you're learning a new skill, it's nice to have the results a little bit sooner.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 1:58

So the one thing that separates me and every other recipe on, you know, Google or whatever, a lot of things that you're going to find in common on the internet is they call for a way starter. And, you know, This is what really honed in for me to write a book because it's just not necessary. I mean, this has been going on. People have been doing sourdough, fermenting wine, beer, etc for centuries before this people needing a starter because they think, you know, they're scared maybe and they're like, oh, well, this is safe. I better only have this way starter when it's just not simply the case. So, I, my book is projected simply for the novice and just basically giving them that good grounding and good skill set to where they can literally ferment anything.

Jill: 2:50

Why do you think the way starter kind of came into popularity?

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 2:53

I think it came in with industrialization and commercialism, whereas, oh, we're so scared of bacteria. You know you're gonna get sick. Well, look at mold, for example. We don't want to eat that. And so, I teach people how to do things. So, say for example, if you're a beginner in my book, I teach you, Hey, a great way to go about wild fermentation is starting with a mason jar. It's just simple. It's easy. And I'll... Everyone has success with it, you know, and so given them the understanding of a lot of this plays into environment and just a little bit of salt and I promise you, we're not going to have any mold going on, and if you do, then you have to look at where you're putting it. That is also essential,

Jill: 3:43

Mm hmm. Definitely.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 3:45

yeah, the temperature in your house is going to be different than the temperature in mine. You know, I live here in a place where it's triple digits during the summer, you know.

Jill: 3:55

Right. Right. Yeah, I know that plays a big role. It's kind of one of the beauties of it is that it's a, it's a science, but it's also an art depending on, excuse me, oh my goodness, for some reason I get a frog in my throat every time I record a podcast. It's definitely so many variables, which makes it, I think could be frustrating, but also really beautiful in that you get to have so many variables and it's different depending on where you're doing it.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 4:17

Exactly. So, scientifically, it's, it is a metabolic breakdown of where the microorganisms, they're just kind of taken over. Specifically, we are dealing with the wild bacteria strain Lactobacillus. But, you know, I prefer layman's terms, so... Every, because there's bacteria in the air, you know, so every fruit and vegetable, you know, you give it that good environment, the proper environment, and you're going to be able to create a beautiful probiotic jar without any waste starter.

Jill: 4:48

Yes. I love that. And I'd love to get into here in a little bit. But maybe a little more of the nitty gritty of the salt ferments versus the ones that you know, why people would be trying to use a way starter and kind of the background of that. But I'd love to just kind of dial it back for a minute. And for someone listening to this who has dabbled in maybe growing their own food or preservation or cooking from scratch. But they're still a little hesitant about fermentation. Why would you say someone should look into this form of preserving food over, you know, freezing or canning or those things?

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 5:19

Sure. Absolutely. So I'm going to preface this with the standard American and a standard American diet is very unhealthy. You know, it's recommended that we even eat seven to 10 vegetables and fruits a day, and people don't do that. So if I can meet you where you're at. If you're still eating out, that's okay. We got to start in small places, right? So having you enter the world of wild fermentation and getting probiotics, you're, if you, when you get these natural probiotics and not, this isn't a pill. So this is food and this is something that your body 100 percent recognizes. And it's going to digest it very quickly. And so probiotics, let's talk about that. Wild fermentation has so many great benefits. You know, it keeps your bowels regular. It helps and speeds up digestion. Which if you eat a lot of meat, you know, or stuff like that, you really need something to kind of get it in and get it outta that colon, you know? So there are many reasons to go about probiotics. A lot of people who have type two diabetes are on a probiotic pill, and I have actually helped them wean off with the help of their doctor. Switching from the pill to probiotic ferments every week.

Jill: 6:39

Yeah. So you're, you're getting the benefits of preserving the food for later, but also I think a lot more health aspects there involved than just canning and freezing. Not that those are bad necessarily, but you're getting that extra step.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 6:52

Exactly. And so when you ferment something, it isn't like when you can, you can't, it's not shelf stable. It will have to stay in the refrigerator. But most of my recipes, once it's fermented, It's good for 12 months in your fridge.

Jill: 7:07

Okay. Yeah. I definitely want to talk about cold storage because that's one of my biggest. Hurdles to this, why I don't do it more. I'd love to though for you to give us a little background on why you're so passionate about this because I know you have a pretty amazing personal story related to home fermented foods. Wow.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 7:23

Yeah. Yeah. So 10 years ago I was suffering with IBS and it was just painful. So the pendulum can swing either way, constipation or the runs. And for most people, like, unfortunately with me, I got both of them. So, and it was just something that was just. I, a day to day basis and it was just really hard. Didn't know what I was going to do. You know my gastrologist, he had me on a pill to speed up my digestion because I also have a hiatal hernia. And so I'm like, well, this is just crazy, you know? And then. Me and my husband, we were talking about it with some research. We looked into Sally Fallon's book and she was like fermenting. We're like, what is this? You know? And so 10 years ago we started with sauerkraut and all of a sudden within a day, I saw a notice in my bowels. They started to become regular. And then within a month, I noticed I didn't even have IBS. Now, this is something that I do keep up with weekly. So it's almost like I swapped out pills for food. And that's what is so amazing to me because I've helped so many people do the same thing. And it, I have so much passion about it, but it is important to know that you don't want to treat. fermented food like a pill. That's not really my aim at promoting this lifestyle. It is a lifestyle. You need to, let's go old fashioned. Let's get back to the basics. Let's keep everything whole foods. Let's get things out of our garden, you

Jill: 9:01

hmm. Yeah. So when like, when you started to see that change so quickly with your IBS, was that You're eating sauerkraut. Were you eating like cups of it a day? Or are you eating just a little bit a day? I'd love a little bit more. I mean, not to make a prescription for people, because I don't think that's how food works, right? But I'd just love to hear a little bit more of your strategy around that.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 9:17

Absolutely. So when it does come to fermented foods, I actually do kind of prescribe like a little prescription because it is probiotic and we don't want to get you too gassy too soon, right? It's kind of like starting out with beans. If you've never ate beans, you got to start slow. So if you're just starting out, I do recommend that you start out with one fermented food. recipe and, you know, maybe have it once or twice a week and just see how your body feels from there. People typically respond very well from this and then they can go to every day and like maybe a quarter cup amount, half a cup amount, whether it be sauerkraut, my salsa, all my other recipes. So, but the funny thing is when I first started out we did our sauerkraut. And it was, I was so dramatic because I had to eat it with a cracker. And like quickly chase it with water. But you know what, that's the funny thing. We are able to change our palate to good food, to good. And now, my body absolutely craves the bacteria.

Jill: 10:21

Yeah. I've, I've noticed that myself too when I started doing more, I, so it's a weird craving and it really caught me off guard when it happened. Cause I'm like, why am I all of a sudden thinking about like sauerkraut and kombucha all of a sudden? And it's just weird. It's like your body knows when you start to tap into that, it starts to talk to you more.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 10:39

Absolutely.

Jill: 10:40

Yeah. Can you give us a little bit kind of like the bird's eye view of what's happening in, let's say, let's say I have a jar of sauerkraut. Someone's listening. They're inspired. They go do their first jar, kind of help them understand the science of what's happening in that jar as they let it sit on their counter. Because I feel like there's Sometimes there's mystery around it and people get really nervous because it feels counterintuitive to put a bunch of vegetables in brine and stick it on your counter with no refrigeration, you know, for the first week. And I know people are like, they message me all the time, it's bubbling. Does it have botulism? Is it bad? Am I safe to eat it? I'm really scared to taste it. So maybe if we kind of understand the science of what's going on in there, it'll give people a little more confidence.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 11:20

Absolutely. So this is why I tell people to start with mason jars with a metal lid. Because it's almost a foolproof way. And so when you are doing your sauerkraut or salsa or anything like that, what's happening is... with a just a little bit of salt and I only recommend you salt to taste. There's no reason to do brine on everything. I only do a brine on one thing and that is pickles. And so once that happens, once that's on the counter in a few days, you're going to notice it's going to start getting bubbly. It's going to start. You're going to start seeing bubbles start to rise to the top and you're even if you're doing sauerkraut you can even see the change of the cabbage itself from going from like bottom to top as it's just The natural bacteria is just breaking it down all the way to the top, which is what you want You know, we want that bacteria and so by the time you're done fermenting What I tell people is if you see bubbles You are good to go. If you see something furry, red, ugly, it is not your friend. And that is mold. And it's safe to say that. And I think, you know, just using our natural senses that God gave us is just so key. I mean, we do that with everything else that we eat, right? And so just like when we open it, I also recommend people say you're doing your sauerkraut. Well, put a extra little, wad up a little extra piece of cabbage leaf, put it on top. So if you are worried about anything that's going to come up there on top, you're just discarding that. And then everything else is on the bottom.

Jill: 12:59

Yeah. Yeah. So the bacteria are coming from the vegetable itself, right?

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 13:05

Exactly. It's already on there. And so with a really good environment. We're just giving it space to grow and what separates that from mold is mold loves air, you know? So say for example, we put that extra cabbage leaf on top and you might see and it's below the water content level There might be a little something there, but it could be small. I'm telling you, if you go, if you go about my skill sets and my book, you're more than likely will never have that problem. But if you do, it is just so easy to discard that, throw it away. And like I said, you've got all that good extra goodness already underneath.

Jill: 13:48

Yeah. And so the bacteria is on the vegetable and then the salt is important because is that helping to repress any bad bacteria? What's kind of the function of the salt in a brine? Because I know if we're not using our whey, and maybe that's a good time to talk about you know, whey be why people think whey is necessary and why you don't think it is and why I'm also a salt, strict salt only person. So I'd love to hear why salt and why not whey?

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 14:15

So, whey just goes back to, you know, people feeling safe, you know you know, Oh, I want to have 100 percent guarantee this is going to work, whereas I, I like the old simple methods. I'm like, why have to buy something extra when I already have salt? So it's important because salt does keep bad bacteria away, but you don't have to over salt it. You know, you, you just salt to taste and everything else does itself. I mean, it's so amazing. So I'm a firm, I'm firmly against a way starter just because I love old fashioned ways. I love it that people have been making sauerkraut, you know, all, all cultures have, have a ferment, you know, in Asia, you have kimchi in Russia, you know, You have beet kvass, you know, and it's just so amazing, you know, and they don't use starter cultures, you know, a way culture or anything like that. They just use the natural process and this is a tradition that has been passed down. So they're not scared of this and they know it's safe and they know what to look for. We all know mold is your enemy. So

Jill: 15:29

Sure. So people might be marketed away culture because they're kind of maybe thinking that they need that extra burst of bacteria when you're saying, no, the bacteria is there. Just let it, give it the right environment. You don't need to add any extra in.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 15:41

exactly, exactly. Just keep it simple. I'm all about simplicity.

Jill: 15:47

Yes, totally. What is, how does it balance out with, I know home ferments, you know, we're, we're, We're kind of speaking in the realm of how probiotic and beneficial they are. How does that compare? And I don't expect you to have the perfect science breakdown, but how does that compare contrast with the probiotics that you're going to buy at the store? Because I mean, you go to the doctor, they're always like probiotic, probiotic. So

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 16:07

Yeah, yeah,

Jill: 16:08

you fully replace a probiotic pill with home probiotic foods? Like what's your thoughts on that?

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 16:15

so I have and I have helped many people do that that have type 2 diabetes They have been very successful in doing that simply because once you start fermenting and you start fermenting a variety of foods like Tomatoes cabbage you're getting multiple nutrients and just a diverse strains of probiotics because you're getting this from all the different vegetables, you know, and so I I do think it's key, you know, When it, when it comes to the probiotic pills that you buy in a store, I like to think of that as kind of like a vitamin B pill. You can kind of take that supplement and when you go to the bathroom, you're going to immediately pee a very bright yellow. Now, at that point, do you really think your body absorbed all that?

Jill: 17:08

Hmm. All

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 17:08

I mean, how can it, you know? And so my thing is when you, we are giving ourself probiotics in a food form. Our body recognizes all of it and we're able to take it in everything.

Jill: 17:25

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And I, I, you know, my gut has got my funny pun. My gut has always told me like. That, you know, it makes more sense that the probiotic foods that we're, we're, you know, wired to eat, we've all, that we've eaten culturally for millennia would be more beneficial than whatever they can package into a little pill. And sometimes like, especially when the pills aren't refrigerated, I'm like, how, how alive is that little pill? Like, you know, they're like,

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 17:48

Exactly. It is not alive.

Jill: 17:51

And I'm like, how does that work? So yeah, it's, it makes a lot of sense to me that the real, the real food. is

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 17:56

and you're right, not to interrupt you, but you are totally right because if it's not refrigerated, Well, how's it living? Because one of my favorite things to do actually with one of my sauces is I will ferment it, keep it in the fridge. And if I'm in, if I'm in a hurry, I can quickly take that out, put it in a skillet, add it to taco meat or anything like that. And. Boom, that's vegetables already chopped and loaded because when you heat it up, sure, you're killing the probiotics, but it still becomes the veg itself. It doesn't taste sour or anything like that. And that's another thing I would like to hit on is that everyone has this well, we're scared of it being so sour because everyone is so familiar with the sourness of sauerkraut. So, but I'm like, well, maybe you should try salsa then. So, Everything fermented is going to have what I call the fermented bite. You're going to have like a little hit on your tongue from it, but it's not everything has to be sour. You know, my pickles, they're not totally sour. The salsa is not so sour, you know, it's actually enjoyable. And that's the funniest thing. Like when I meet people at my local city farmer's market where I work, they actually are like shocked. They're like, this doesn't even taste bad. I could eat this. You know,

Jill: 19:16

Yeah. And I've noticed like with my home, because I don't like store bought sauerkraut, just like the kind that's in the cans, you know, or the jars on the grocery store shelves. I don't like the taste of it. I've never have, but my homemade sauerkraut, I actually do enjoy it. And I feel like you can control the sourness more when you're making it yourself. Right.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 19:35

exactly. So it's totally up to you when it comes to sauerkraut and the sourness. So you can let it go for six to eight weeks. You can let it go for 12 weeks. You know, that is up to you and what you like the most. There are a lot of people out there who really wanted it pungent. Well, then they're going to let it go for 12 weeks. In one of my recipes, I have created like a coleslaw version of sauerkraut and it's where you shred carrots. And and onions and it's just so good, you know, and with that ferment with it having carrots in it, it has sugar. And so it's going to speed up that process to under seven days.

Jill: 20:12

Oh, interesting. Okay.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 20:14

And so it's not sour at that point.

Jill: 20:17

That sounds amazing. Yeah, the coleslaw. I've never tried coleslaw. I've done a lot of cabbage y stuff with the fermenting, but the coleslaw is intriguing to me. So that's, that sounds really good. And I really, I don't know, sometimes it's hard with the uninitiated, I feel like to, to feed them the sauerkraut. You know, even my, my kids will have phases where they're like, well, they, they love it. And then there's days like, I'm not sure what to do with the sauerkraut, but like the coleslaw is a lot easier to sell. And so is the salsa, it sounds like. I mean, salsa, who doesn't like salsa? Yep.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 20:42

exactly.

Jill: 20:43

Yeah. Hey friend, I'm interrupting this episode for just a second to give a shout out to our sponsor, Genuine Beef. Now, this is actually my beef company, the one that my husband and I started a number of years ago to bring our grass finished Wyoming beef straight to your doorstep. And I know that whenever we start to shift into this fall and winter season, I get the very primal urge to stock up on food. And I know many of you feel that same way. So we have put together a freezer filler special to help you do just you're going to get four of our most popular beef roasts, the ones that are great for crock pots and those cozy winter meals, as well as three pounds of our 90 10 ground beef. We're going to put it all in a bundle and give it to you for 15 percent off. off while supplies last. Now we can ship this to anywhere in the continental US. We do second day air. We put a lot of dry ice in there, so it'll get to your doorstep safe and sound. And if you want to grab a box or two or three, head on over to the prairiehomestead. com slash freezer, uh, to grab your bundle. And I'll go ahead and drop that link in the show notes too. Now back to our episode. So I'd love to talk about the timeframes because you said seven days, you can get it done. We talked about controlling the sourness with how long you're fermenting. What about like the biggest barrier to me, for me in doing a ton more fermenting is like, I don't have a root cellar where I can have giant crocks of things. And so I, I have two refrigerators, but they're often full. And so I'll do a few jars of sauerkraut when I need. to use up cabbage and such, but sometimes I really struggle with finding space for everything. Do you have any tricks for that?

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 22:25

Absolutely. So say for example, you want cause I, you know, I've run into the same problem. You know, I have a beautiful crock, but I'm like, okay, I got it. A little, a limited amount of space here. So, like, I do what, pretty much what you were saying, okay, I keep a jar of kraut for my family, but I, if I am only eating, like, maybe a little bit of pickles in there, well, I don't need a big jar of pickles, fermented pickles. So, I can just make a little tiny jar in that and keep it in the bottom of the fridge or something. And the same thing goes for salsa, you know. So, I also make and teach people how to do a fermented soda. So, You could store that however you like once it's done fermenting, you know, and that's just easy accessible and it's a wonderful drink for the summertime. So my go to is keeping it in mason jars. Because to me it just, it just helps in the fridge.

Jill: 23:19

Yeah. Yeah. So talk to me about the soda a little bit more. Is that like a kefir base? Like what are, what were you getting the, the punch of the probiotic? In that, I'm curious.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 23:29

So I am doing this with a ginger bug. So we're getting all the wonderful benefits of fresh ginger in itself. Anti viral, anti inflammatory properties all in a drink. And so that is a little bit longer. That is the only thing in my book that takes a little bit longer. And you know to produce the bug from scratch. It's going to take about two weeks, but after that you're good to go. And every seven days you can make like literally like a gallon of soda.

Jill: 24:00

Oh, wow. Okay. And it's pretty fizzy. I mean,

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 24:03

it is. It is very fizzy. And so you can, well, I tell people, you know, you can use any glass bottles. You could use mason jars if you like, but if you're looking for a good pop, you know, the old beer gross bottles, the green bottles, those swing top bottles are great. I don't recommend the ones on Amazon. They have. Busted on me more than once. So I do not recommend that at all. But, you know, when it comes to soda, a lot of people don't want to eat, like, sourness or anything like that, or like, maybe salt. They're just scared. They're like, okay, well, maybe I can drink it. And that's where the soda comes into play. And that's one thing that my kids love the most. is a ginger soda because it resembles like a ginger al sprite type thing. But you can flavor it to other flavorings as well. I use a lot of herbs. So with my ginger concoction, I can make like a hibiscus ginger soda or elderberry ginger soda and just kind of change it up.

Jill: 25:04

Awesome. Yeah. I love that. How does that compare to kombucha?

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 25:08

Oh, I was so happy you asked that. So many, many years ago, I started out with kombucha. Dealt with the hotel, the Scobie Hotel and everything that was forever growing and just wouldn't stop, you know, and it's like, it's just a different flavor. You know, with kombucha, you're fermenting like a tea. And then I ran into the problem of, well, not everyone wants like this tea. And it just wasn't. And then I just kind of got to where like, you know, I don't like this either. And so I looked into like milk keepers and stuff like that, but I don't do that. But Hey, to each their own, there's. However you get into the fermented world is great. So I, I just started the ginger bug and it spawned from the Victorian age where they made ginger beer. So yeah, so I just kind of manipulated that a little bit and kind of created my own little thing with it.

Jill: 26:04

So it's a little, you'd say the ginger soda is easier than kombucha potentially.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 26:10

100%. So there is no Scobie Hotel we're keeping up with. Nothing huge that's taking up space. I do this bug in a mason jar. in a quart sized jar with a cloth covering, and that's it. I feed it every two days. You know, and if

Jill: 26:28

yeah, really appealing to me. We've, I, I love kombucha. I have done kombucha on and off homemade for years. I really struggle to stay on top of it. Like I actually have a giant scoby and a continuous brew crock on my counter now. It's highly neglected. Like.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 26:44

see and look as a if you girl Yeah, as a homeschool mom of three children I just found it to be like another stressor and I'm like, I don't need another stressor I need something a little bit more simply and I found the ginger soda to be a lot more busy and more like a soda, you know?

Jill: 27:04

I'm excited to try that because I do love ginger ale and ginger beer. So I think that would be right up my alley. And then we'd have the probiotic. Okay. So I'm inspired for the gender. We're going for it.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 27:14

Can I talk a little bit about the fermented food you might buy in the, in the store?

Jill: 27:19

yeah, that's a great topic. Let's definitely, definitely hit on that. Yeah.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 27:22

because everyone goes and gets their kombucha, right? They, so I read a lot of scientific articles and in my book, I even have some case studies, but it is scientifically proven that when you buy that kombucha from the store, it's practically vinegar. at that, at that moment, that is not good for your gut microbiome at that level of intake. And even, I'm sure you've heard of the sauerkraut brand bubblies.

Jill: 27:52

Mm hmm. Yeah.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 27:53

the same. That you are not getting 100 percent probiotics in that jar. I mean, it's commercialized. They have to do something, you know what I mean? So it's proven, if you want the full benefits Just do it yourself because then you're going to be able to take it all in.

Jill: 28:10

Right. Right. And that was, that's a great, that's a great point because I think a lot of people, maybe because I know like the Bubbies or Bubblies or whatever, like it's a refrigerated sauerkraut, but there's a lot of brands that are just on the shelf next to the canned green beans and those would have like no probiotic benefit. Right. Because those have been canned at a high temperature. Yeah.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 28:27

Nothing. Yeah. So once you heat up a pro, any fermented food or anything, it's gone. You've lost it.

Jill: 28:34

Right. Right. And the, and the kombucha kombucha we've, I mean, I do buy store bought kombucha sometimes, but I'll look on the back on some brands and you can tell they put CO2 in it to make it have fizz, which is pleasant. And I know there's, I mean, they have to do that because it needs to be consistent and it's hard to get consistent fizz and kombucha commercially, I'm sure. But still it's like, it's not the same product, like you said, is what you would be making at home.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 28:57

Exactly. It is not. And plus think about the sugar intake that's in it, you know, and a lot of things that's marketed in stores, you know, they don't have to tell you everything that's in it or the amount that's in it. You know, so when you are able to control this at home, so when I make my ginger soda, I actually am able to do it at a low sugar. Now, the bacteria feeds on sugar, so it will, that's how we feed it. But, you know, during the actual process of fermenting it, it's eating that sugar. And if you like something less sweet, then let it go a little bit longer, like five days, you know, once you've bottled it, and it will be less sweet.

Jill: 29:39

Yeah. Yeah. Can we, can you speak to like, we've talked a lot about the vegetable ferments, which is kind of the classic. Does what about the fermented dairy or, or things like sourdough? Are we still getting the same sort of probiotic punch in there? Are there other considerations? What are your thoughts on those?

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 29:55

Yeah. So you're actually, when it comes to dairy and sourdough, we are getting more, we're getting a more diverse bacteria. So in sourdough, it's so amazing because it can be cooked and the bacteria will not be killed. And that's not like that with all the other stuff that I've been talking about. So this is the only thing that when we cook it, that the bacteria is just so alive in there and we're gonna, and it's so, like, for example, you can ferment the bread for 24 hours or anything like that, or maybe even 48. I love long fermented breads, but you are taking a huge amount of that gluten out of that bread. And making that like 100 percent digestible for your body.

Jill: 30:40

hmm.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 30:41

And there's been people that I have met that has like celiac disease and stuff. And I caution them and you know, be careful. Try it. But they have all been able to tolerate breads made at home. Sourdough bread made at home. Because that stuff that you buy in the store that is marketed as sourdough, isn't sourdough. It's just a sourdough seasoning. You know,

Jill: 31:02

Totally. Yeah. Such a disappointment. That's why I think these skills are so important to bring back because this is one area that commercialism really hasn't been able to conquer just to the nature of these foods being so alive. And so the, the stuff, the, the copycats you'll see at the store, whether it's the sourdough bread that you buy on the shelf or the sauerkraut you buy on the shelf, they're, they're, they're They're really that food in name only and they do not contain the good stuff. So this is where you get to, as a homesteader, really step into this and learn how to make it yourself.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 31:31

exactly. That's what I tell people when I do my workshops. You know, hey, if it's shelf stable, it's not real. Make it yourself, you know, and that's one thing that people don't understand is that we all have bacteria in our guts. And it's up to us as to what we feed it, as to are we promoting good bacteria or an army of bad bacteria that can promote candida, yeast, and all that stuff. So, when we're eating a, and getting a good gut microbiome with vegetables, fruit, whole foods, you know then we are promoting immunity.

Jill: 32:08

Right.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 32:09

if we go out deep, we're not doing that. Just by one meal. You can promote disease. For the years to come, but the good thing is that our gut literally resets like every seven days, kind of like a snake that sheds its skin, so we can always come back. We can always bring our gut back, you know, but I will say that if you stick to your whole food diet. A good lifestyle, gardening, all that, all that jazz, and add in your probiotic fermented food, you're gonna notice you just don't get sick anymore. Not like you used to. And I think that's what keeps me coming back more and more. If I see one of my kids come home, they immediately start throwing up. I think, oh, stomach bug. First thing I do is I help them, and then I go help hit the fridge. I don't care what it is, ginger soda, sauerkraut. I immediately eat two cups. Okay, and I'm telling you every single time I never get it and there's throw up in my hair I'm cleaning it. I'm mom, you know, I'm doing the whole thing and I will never get it so I do believe there is a lot of power in this and healing ourselves with just food, you know, bringing it back to the old days.

Jill: 33:26

I absolutely agree with that. Yes. So what does that look like? I think that brings us to a great, a great question. Like, what is your daily intake of probiotic foods look like? Are you just like slamming a certain amount of sauerkraut every morning, you know, just like religiously, or do you kind of weave it into your meals throughout the day and other forms?

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 33:44

Yeah. So that's great. So yeah, I definitely do a weaving. So say for example, if I have eggs for breakfast, I might put some salsa on top and then at lunch, you know, so I'll, you know, it's okay to also treat fermented foods as a condiment, especially when we first start out. I do think that's important slowing that in there. And then for lunch, I will have a ginger soda. Along with my meal, that will include a sourdough bread. So I have got my family to the point to where we're functioning on sourdough bread

Jill: 34:18

Yeah,

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 34:19

instead of everything in the store. And when you have kids, that might be a little hard to do at first. And, but, you know. So, anyway, incorporating it, sourdough, the ginger soda, I will say it's just so easy to just intake if you're on the go, anything like that having that salsa is also really good if you're on the go and you want to just add it to like a chicken salad or something. You know, there's so many different ways that we can incorporate this, but typically every day I'll have a soda A ferment as a condiment or sauerkraut as a side and of course sourdough bread.

Jill: 34:57

yeah. I love the condiment idea. Americans love their condiments, so if you can just kind of swap out some of the packaged store versions with the fermented instead, I feel like that's a really easy way to start dipping your toe in the waters.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 35:08

exactly

Jill: 35:10

Yeah. I, I wanted to talk a little bit about the technique, because you've mentioned mason jars, and I'm also in the mason jar fermentation camp. I think it's just so simple, and I have so many mason jars, so why not use them?

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 35:22

Right

Jill: 35:22

over the years, I've tried different, systems or airlocks or lids or, you know, people always are trying to sell you the newest, greatest sort of fermenting, fermentation trick. Do you use any of those airlocks or fancy things or do you just do regular old jar lids?

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 35:39

I do not and i'm gonna tell you why because I am all about simplicity. Let's keep it simple You know the mainstream people are gonna try to get you to buy every little thing they can Oh, I can market that and sell that I can make money doing this so you can't ferment unless you got this airlock lid It's just so not true. If you want to have it, sure, have it. I mean, maybe if you were doing a sauerkraut for 12 weeks or something, that could come into play if it's really hot outside. But other than that, no, I really don't think people need it at all. In some of my ferments, I even just use a cloth covering, like for my sourdough starter and for my ginger soda bug. It's just a cloth covering, you know, but everything else, metal lid is simple. It keeps a lot of things out. I mean, say, for example, look at sourdough starter, you know, and you bring all this fruit and veg and there's you know, fruit flies everywhere. Well, if you just leave your lid cracked a little bit or on your ferment, they're gonna get in there and you're gonna get all kinds of bad stuff like maggots or something and you don't want that. So keeping it covered. You could even use coffee filters, you know on your sourdough starter, but I'm old fashioned. I love a good cloth covering.

Jill: 37:00

yeah, for sure. Yeah, and I've tried, you know, I've tried the, I guess I've never seen a difference in the airlock, fancy lid ferment versus just the regular old lid. I, and I'm... You know, because they're sold to you so well, so I've been like, Oh, this is going to be the answer. And then I tried. I'm like, it's not really different. I don't know. I'm having a hard time seeing it. So I've always, every time I talk to someone about fermentation, I'm like, am I missing something with this? Should I, you know, should I look into the latest greatest, but it's always reassuring that just the simple stuff works the best.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 37:27

no. Because it really just boils down to the timing. If you understand the timeframe that that certain ferment needs to go you're going to be fine. Especially because my book is geared to the novice. I mean, you're just looking at like a seven days and in the summertime, it can even be three days, you know, and that's just simple, quick, you know, especially if you work and you're busy, you got a bunch of kids running around, you know, so simple, simple, simple is what I always preach the most.

Jill: 37:58

Yes. Yes. I love it. Okay, as we kind of wind down here, I think my last big question for you is, you mentioned mold a few times. I personally haven't had a lot of mold issues, but every once in a while I get someone emailing me and they're like, I cannot stop getting mold on my ferments. And I know you mentioned the, the, the trick of like putting the cabbage core, the cabbage leaf or, or something like that on top to kind of protect that top layer. You can discard that. But if someone continually is getting mold throughout their ferments, what is happening and how can they prevent that?

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 38:29

Okay, that can be easily prevented. The thing is, I teach in my book that you have to find a ferment spot, and that might make you have ferments that is completely moldy, and what's going on, well, you need to move it somewhere else. I have people reach out to me and say, oh, this is, and I'm like, okay, well, where did you put the ferment? Oh, in my washroom. Oh my goodness. That's like the last place to put it with a dryer, creating moisture and humidity. You can go through all the steps correctly all you want, but if you don't set that up into the correct place with a temperature or anything like that, you're just going to get mold, period. I don't care how well you did the process. So we have to make sure we keep it out of direct sunlight. I mean, think about it. If you go up to a window, put your hand on it, you're going to feel a change difference. So if you have a ferment that is, Get in that sunlight at all, you know, bam mold if you're putting it right there beside your stove where steam and condensations constantly coming up, you know, that's not going to set you up for success. So I recommend. Finding a dark cabinet that is typically undisturbed or I love to ferment on bookshelves. I got like three bookshelves. So, you know, you can go all over my house and probably find a ferment, you know, just because, you know, it's really good to do it in a, in a cool room to where it can slowly ferment and do its job.

Jill: 40:00

That makes sense. Okay. Does, is it common, more common that people are in superhuman environments might have more trouble with mold? Or are there things that they would have to think about? I live in like a place with 0% humidity, so that is not something I have to worry about, but I, I know a lot of folks have a lot more humidity than I do.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 40:16

Right. No, I don't think so at all. Like I said, I think it just depends on the placement and it might take you some time finding that room in your home, but I promise you everyone has that room. And the reason you have to find that room, that one spot is you might not have central heating and air like I do. You might have a window unit. You might have a wood stove that you're working with, you know, so finding, finding that spot kind of just balance where the temperature is like a continuous. continuing temperature is really key.

Jill: 40:49

Okay. Awesome. Good to know. Yeah. Temperature I know is a big deal. Whew. This has been awesome. I am very excited to go get a ginger bug or make a ginger bug and start some soda. And maybe I can, Just put the SCOBY on vacation. It's actually been on vacation for a really long time

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 41:06

Just throw it away because once you learn this ginger bug, you're going to be like, you're not going to go back. I promise you.

Jill: 41:14

It sounds quite appealing especially right now in the summer time Yeah, where can folks get your book? Where can they learn more about you and follow along with everything you're doing?

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 41:23

You can find my book, Bringing Back Bacteria on amazon. com, barnesandnoble. com and walmart. com. And you can follow me on all my socials at wild. and artfully me. And I have all kinds of stuff off for there. I have a YouTube channel I just started where I offer just actually uploaded how people can make tapache. And I don't know if you've heard of that. It's a pineapple fermented drink.

Jill: 41:49

that sounds

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 41:50

very easy. So yes. So find me on my socials. I also have a little podcast of my own.

Jill: 41:56

Okay. Awesome. Fabulous. Any other things, tips you would like to share before we sign off? We covered a lot of good ground, but did we miss anything?

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 42:05

No, I think that if we keep to a whole food diet with added probiotics, I think we're going to set ourself up for 100 percent success and just being able to prevent disease and enjoying the old fashioned way of preservation.

Jill: 42:21

Yeah. I love that. Well said. So Jamie, this has been so fun and so inspiring. Thank you for joining me and everybody go check out all of the Jamie has to offer a lot of good content or book looks amazing. So go have a look and let's start from into more. I know I'm definitely inspired. So thanks for being here.

jamie-vzsrbjui6__compressed-audio_how-to-make-your-own-probiotics_2023-aug-11-0153pm_jill_winger_old fas: 42:38

Thank you so much.