S13 E19: The Resistance, Mental Toughness, & Developing an Old-Fashioned Mindset

Here on the podcast we talk a lot about choosing an old-fashioned path. Sometimes that’s skills like cooking or gardening, but other times, it’s a definitive choice in how we choose to think and move through life. I believe one of the most powerful old-fashioned practices we can adopt is to push against the modern victim mindset. 

Today I’m thrilled to be joined by Mike Roberts of The Converse Cowboy. We’re diving deep into mental toughness, battling the resistance, and more in this philosophical episode!

Learn more about Mike Roberts here: https://www.conversecowboy.com/


Learn more about Genuine Beef Co. here: https://genuinebeefco.com/

While supplies last, get 15% off our Genuine Beef Freezer Filler Special! Learn more here: https://www.theprairiehomestead.com/freezer

Order my NEW book Old-Fashioned on Purpose now and get exclusive bonuses! http://oldfashionedbook.com/

Have a message you want to share with the world? Apply to be a guest on the Old-Fashioned on Purpose podcast here: https://www.theprairiehomestead.com/podcast-guest-application

Weekly musings from my homestead: http://theprairiehomestead.com/letter

My essays on an old-fashioned life: www.prairiephilosophy.com

My homesteading tutorials & recipes: www.theprairiehomestead.com

Our Wyoming-raised, grass-finished beef: http://genuinebeefco.com

Jill on Twitter: http://twitter.com/homesteader

Jill on Instagram: @jill.winger

Jill on Facebook: http://facebook.com/theprairiehomestead

Transcript

Jill Winger: 0:00

Hey, friends, welcome back to the Old Fashioned On Purpose podcast. So here on the show, as you know, we talk a lot about choosing the more old fashioned path. And a lot of times that manifests itself in a very practical way where we're talking about composting or permaculture, or cooking from scratch or raising our own food. But I think there's another side of the old fashioned lifestyle that maybe we don't give enough time to. And sometimes the most old fashioned way to be is when we're making a choice on how we think and move through life. I don't know about you, but I see a very pervasive mindset in our modern culture, and it's this idea that life happens to us, and that maybe we're simply victims of our circumstances, and there's not much we can do to change the trajectory of what we're doing. And when I see so many people manifesting this in their own lives and, and what they're doing, I think one of the most powerful old fashioned things we can do is to push back against that mindset. So today I am so thrilled to be joined by Mike Roberts of the Converse Cowboy. Now he is not a homesteader, but he is very heavily involved in the cowboy and Western lifestyle. And there's a lot of crossover there. You guys know that I'm always been a horse girl and horses are how I got into this lifestyle. So I definitely feel some kinship there. Initially drew me to Mike is his ability to dive deep into mindset and philosophy from a very down to earth perspective. And you've probably seen some of his quotes go viral on Instagram. He's a cowboy hat holding a poster board with the really impactful words. So Mike, I am so excited to have you here today. And I can't wait for this conversation.

Mike Roberts: 1:36

Yes. Thank you, Jill. Pleasure to pleasure to join you.

Jill Winger: 1:40

yeah, I think this is gonna be good. I'm excited to bring your wisdom to my audience. Let's just kick it off. Give us a little bit of your background. How did you get so interested in mindset and philosophy and have you always been like this or is this more more recent development for you?

Mike Roberts: 1:55

Yeah, I think it, it, it, it kind of found me, right? Like so I, I grew up playing sports specifically baseball. I played all the way through college and I don't know that I, I read many of those textbooks in college, you know, but whenever I got out of school is when I actually started reading and I read, I started reading a lot of books on psychology and philosophy and laws of attraction and manifestation, all of those things, just, I don't know, it just caught my attention. And so. If we, if we back up to the sports, you know, it was very applicable to that visualizations vision boards, all of those things I had no idea about. Like I, I didn't really know how to articulate what I was doing. I hadn't heard about any of that, but I w I was doing it just. kind of intuitively. And then I started learning more about it. The first book I would have read was Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. And it just opened my eyes. I was like, holy cow, this is, this is this is crazy that this is the way this universe works, you know? And so from there, like, it just, it led me down this, this path of just self discovery and, and I guess I'm just curious by nature and, you know, books were my resource to find that because I didn't know anybody, you know, I'm from the south. I'm from Louisiana. And so that's very woo woo to talk about some of the stuff. So I was some of the stuff that I was reading. And so, yeah, it wasn't until later and in life that I really got it. into it, but it always just, it was kind of there. I was in sales, always competing and always, you know, had high ambitious goals and I think I'm getting a little off track from your question, but yeah, like the, the, the mind, it, it, it's one of those things. It's so powerful and so interesting to me. You know, and, and you're catching me at a very interesting time because I, over the past, I don't know, about six months to a year, I feel like I've just had this mental static, right? Like, or like a fogginess and not real clear on things. And so. Trying to figure all that out without judging myself for it has been interesting. And so just in the past couple of weeks, I've had a lot of clarity around that and went back to some of the practices that I was doing when I felt my best, you know?

Jill Winger: 4:17

Yeah. Yeah, I've been in those seasons of fogginess for sure. And it's funny how I think when we advance, how easy it is to forget the basics. And sometimes it's just, there's so much magic in the basics and going back what we know to what we know works, but I don't know if you're anything like me. I love growth. I love always stretching and reaching, and sometimes I can always be thinking there's something bigger that's going to solve it where it's just going back to the simple stuff.

Mike Roberts: 4:37

Mm hmm. I agree.

Jill Winger: 4:39

So you mentioned you know, down in the South, the woo woo that people sometimes scoff at that. And I think especially, I think one of the reasons that you kind of caught my attention is because you are speaking to these topics, like you said, law of attraction or mindset philosophy. And that's not really necessarily a cowboy thing. I mean, there's definitely wise cowboys and cowboys with cowboy wisdom, but like to mix those two together in the way that you do is not super common. And sometimes the Western mindset pushes back against anything that it perceives as That woo woo. So how do you balance that? Have you pushed, have you run into pushback there? Like, how do you sort all that out?

Mike Roberts: 5:14

Yeah, so I'll start from whenever whenever I just had the idea of this show, the Converse Cowboy and, and all of the resistance that I felt to starting this thing, you know, because like you just said, it was like, gosh, nobody's going to get this. I'm a weirdo. I'm into some. Pretty unique stuff. You know, I'm a real estate investor by day, but I also love this cowboy lifestyle. And I'm also into spirituality and psychedelics and all of, you know, expanding my mind in any way possible. And so what I found out, though, is there's more people there's more people that relate to what my content is than what I thought. And I get the messages and they say, thank you for doing what you're doing. I thought I was the only one, you know, and so by showing up and doing that there is a community within a community that that is seeking that stuff. And of course, yes, in a, in any field, there is, especially with the, the cowboy lifestyle, the horse world that I am in, you know, whether it's the cutting horses, the cow horse reigning there's those people that are going to push back and just not understand whatever it is that, that you're doing. And that's what. I have learned is like if you try to create something that everybody likes, you're going to end up creating something that nobody loves. I don't, that's not my quote. I don't know who said that, but it's so true. And so I try to remember that, you know, when I'm creating content or I'm thinking about a show that I want to put together I focus on me as selfish as that may be like, what is it that like, if I'm prepping for a show, like, why did I ask this person to come on? What do I want to know from them? And I let that always like settles the anxiety that settles all of the mental, the negative chatter. And it allows me to produce something that that means something to me. And of course, I, you know, the goal is to provide value to others. And I think in it. And doing it that way. You know, I hear people talk about writing a book. They, they, the people, the few people that I've heard talk about this, they'll think about one person. They have one person in mind that they're writing to. And so I think about that whenever I'm creating content. You know, whether it be a show or just social media, whatever, if I'm writing and, and that one person is me. So it's a very, it's a very, it could be potentially viewed as selfish. But the intent, there is an underlying intent that I want to provide as much value as I can to my audience.

Jill Winger: 7:48

Yeah, I heard someone say just the other day I can't remember what it was, but basically the person that you can best serve is the person that you used to be. So I, to me, that doesn't sound selfish at all, just because I do the same thing in my own content and the times where I have tried to serve the whole world, I end up speaking to absolutely no one. It's completely useless, but often whatever I find lights. Yeah, go ahead.

Mike Roberts: 8:09

I was just going to say, yeah, it's, it's easy to get caught up in that pandering trap, you know, where you just try to pander to an audience or like what you think they may like, or whatever that, that case may be. I think about that with singer songwriters, you know, like writing a song that they are writing, you know, when they create a new album, it's, it could be totally different than the album they did before. And you have a label and you have people who are putting pressure on you to do. Well well, if you buy into that, I just feel like it. It's you're setting yourself up for failure

Jill Winger: 8:40

absolutely.

Mike Roberts: 8:41

Or it depends on how you define success. Like it may sell a whole bunch, but that singer songwriter may not be fulfilled because they didn't do what was true to them. I guess at that time,

Jill Winger: 8:53

There's a tricky balance in going commercial and big on things, even with writing a book, because I, you know, getting ready to launch my second book, and dealing with the gatekeepers of those industries, whether it's publishing or TV or radio or whatever, I know there's a huge tension there, and I've felt it some myself,

Mike Roberts: 9:07

how do you handle

Jill Winger: 9:08

being true to yourself. I mean My latest book, we had some very passionate discussions and I, I had, there were some things I was like willing to compromise on trying to be open minded that, you know, these people do know the publishing industry and there's things I can respect about that, but there were some like hard no's. I'm like, I won't cross over that line. So this is, this is the hill I'm going to die on. And so, I mean, there was a lot of discussions, some hard fought ones, but I think you have to know where your limits are and stick with them no matter what, even if you have to walk away, you have to stick with it.

Mike Roberts: 9:36

what's the name of your second book?

Jill Winger: 9:38

Old fashioned on purpose.

Mike Roberts: 9:40

I saw that on your Instagram. I love that old fashioned on purpose.

Jill Winger: 9:46

yeah, so I'm excited. It was a journey, as all books are. I think when I talked to you on the phone that day, you said you had we were pondering the idea of a book. Are you still thinking of that, or is that something that's down, down the road?

Mike Roberts: 9:58

Yeah, no, I, that's about as far as I've got. I've been thinking about it and I do write, I mean, I write every single day, but gosh, yeah, I that's the best way to say it. I am fighting the resistance, the procrastination, all of those things. The writing is the easy part to me. Like I, I write every day and that's, I get a lot out of that. But putting something out into the world. For the world to read. That's a, that's a different.

Jill Winger: 10:26

Yeah. It's all the feelings, the excitement and the fear. And yeah, for sure. For sure. So you mentioned resistance there and you mentioned it a minute ago. I love the topic of the resistance. I mean, I, I'm sure you probably first heard it from Steven Pressfield. That's where I at least first heard it. Have you read War

Mike Roberts: 10:43

So, you know, Steven Pressfield. Yep.

Jill Winger: 10:45

I love Steven Pressfield. So you said you had resistance when you started your podcast because you weren't, weren't sure how it would be received. I love asking this question of creators. How, how do you push through that? And how do you sort out resistance from also your intuition telling you this isn't the path for you?

Mike Roberts: 11:02

That's such a good question. I think I've asked that before to Steven Pressfield. I had him on the show and I'll plug him. I'll plug him the war of art and turning pro or two of my.

Jill Winger: 11:15

Yes.

Mike Roberts: 11:16

And for those of you that don't know him, he, he's the guy that wrote the legend of bagger Vance and that's what put him on the map as a writer. So the question was, how do I know what is resistance? And then how do I know what is like intuition trying to guide me along my path? Is that okay? Man, that's such a good question. I think, I think you have to, got to be hyper aware of what's going in and out of your brain. And and, and constantly question. What is it, you know, like. I journal every day and I meditate and that's when I feel my best. And so if it, to me, if it's resistance, like this book thing, I truly feel like it's just resistance and I'm fighting my own my own inner negative, like self talk and imposter syndrome in a way. You know, like it just keeps coming back. That's the thing. Like it just won't go away. To me, that's resistance. It's like, and again, that's why I said you caught me at an interesting time. I just started kind of overcoming some of these things. And when I show up it's like the anxiety and the resistance just keeps building and building and building. And it's like, It goes back to the quote, you know, the, the, the cave that you enter the, the cave that you fear to enter holds the treasures you seek and it's one of like the, all of those fears are like the cave that I'm afraid to enter. And when I do, though. It's like this fulfillment, you know, and so yeah, the resistance, gosh, it's I'm trying to think of how to articulate that in a way that will make sense. I think it's just those things that, that just keep nagging you and keep showing up in ways. My intention lately has been like, show me a sign, like, give me a sign that this is what I'm supposed to do. I want you to make it very clear to me. Okay. universe that this is the path I need to go on. This is the path. So yeah, I'll, I'll end it there cause I'm just rambling on at this point, but how would you answer that?

Jill Winger: 13:20

Gosh. I don't know, like, like I think you were trying to articulate. There's lots of different angles and things to consider there. I think one of the things I asked myself when I'm standing on the edge of, you know, wanting to do something or not wanting to do it and trying to figure out, should I or shouldn't I? And is it right for me or not? As I asked myself if I didn't do this thing. And I fast forward, you know, 10 years, 20 years down the road, how would I feel? And if I, I feel instant relief because it wasn't meant for me, or I'm like, oh gosh, I shouldn't have done that anyway, then I usually have my answer. But if I feel like a twinge of regret or missing out, or just wishing I had taken the leap, then that's, that's, usually I know that I need to push through the fear and do it anyway. So it's not foolproof, but that's how I kind of, you know, I pretend like I'm on one of those choose your own adventure books. And I picture both, both outcomes and. Sit with that feeling and just kind of analyze it a little bit.

Mike Roberts: 14:09

Oh, I love it.

Jill Winger: 14:10

I love that topic though, cause I feel like you know, so many people feel that resistance for the first time when they're going to do something big, whether that's start a podcast or write a book or buy a homestead or you know, start riding cutting horses. And a lot of folks, if they're not accustomed to it instantly, immediately think it's not for them. The universe is telling them, no, God's telling them, no, however they want to phrase it. It's not supposed to be. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, like sit with that first. Don't just, just don't take it at face value. So I think it's such an important conversation.

Mike Roberts: 14:35

Yeah. And it's tough. I'm into a lot of different things. And so I think sometimes it just comes down to prioritization. Like, if I'm not getting certain things done, or if I'm not able to do the things I want to do, well, I don't have, it's a sign to let me know, like, my systems aren't in place to allow me to do all of the things that I want to do.

Jill Winger: 14:53

Mm

Mike Roberts: 14:54

If that makes sense, because there's gosh, there's times where I just, I, Find myself journaling a lot. I'm like, I don't have time. I don't, there's not enough time in the day to do the things that I want to do, to do them at the level that I want to do them.

Jill Winger: 15:08

Yeah, I very much relate to that. Because I want to do it all at a very high level and that is not possible. So we have to pick and choose. Okay, so I'm curious, Mike, you've read a lot of books, you've read a lot of older books, the Stoics and such. How do you see mindset shifting over the centuries or millennia? Because I know one of the questions I love to ask here is how did we get to where we are as a modern culture? And it feels like, you know, to a lot of us that our modern culture mindset's pretty Pretty bad, pretty low. Has it, do you think it's always been like this? Do you think people have always struggled with these same limiting beliefs and such or is this more a symptom of our modern era?

Mike Roberts: 15:47

Yeah, I think again, Ryan Holiday has made the Stoic philosophy thing cool and you know, just in reading some of his books, you read the writings from Marcus Aurelius and Seneca and, and all of these guys. And you know, over 2000 years ago, they were dealing with the same stuff that, that we would deal with today. And so I don't think it was all that different. What we have today. Yes, we have more technology. We have more access to our neighbors than what they did. Which may be, maybe not such a great thing at times. But you know, if you look at evolution, like, we had we were always like seeking to be part of a tribe. We were seeking to be part of something not to be cool, but just to survive. Right. And so that's the hardware that we were born with, you know, our human brains through evolution. It's you know, I think about this as a creator. you know, creating content, it's you want people to like you, you want people to like the work that you do. And it's just, that's the hardware that we were, we were born with. So I think what's important to us now, like is, is what was important for survival then isn't. necessarily important right now. And so it's it takes mindfulness practices, you know, in massive awareness to be able to rewire the software that we have.

Jill Winger: 17:12

Yeah

Mike Roberts: 17:12

Does that answer your question?

Jill Winger: 17:14

It does. Yeah, and I think that's such a great point I think of that a lot in terms of food, but you bring bring it in bringing it into this mindset discussion I think is crucial, you know, I always think You know, we're wired that if you find fat or sugar in nature, if you're in a survival setting, you need to eat as much as you can, because it's going to keep you alive. Whereas, you know, our modern culture, now we have that everywhere and that's why we're all struggling with, with health. It's, it's a mismatch, right? And it's that awareness and that being able to kind of over, override what our brain's telling us and go, no, no, I know better. I have to be aware here. I think it's that same thing. And it's, it's cool to bring it into this discussion. So you have interviewed a lot of super cool, super successful people on your podcast, the Converse Cowboy. I'd love to know if you've identified any traits as you've talked to all these different people from all these different walks of life, are there any common threads kind of woven through their stories or their mindsets?

Mike Roberts: 18:08

I think so. I think you know, I often I often find myself in this state of envy with a lot of my guests because they have done the thing that they are doing for a very long time. And it's like they, they found that niche very early on in their life. And that, that is somewhat set them up for success. And of course they, they went through the struggles and they went through everything. It takes Steven Pressfield. We brought him up earlier. Like that guy, he'd, I, if. We'll have to listen to my podcast, not, not plugging my own show here. But I think he said in that interview that he didn't make a dime until he was 50. And you know, so he spent time and, and I've heard him talk about it on other podcasts. He spent time picking apples on an apple farm and, and just doing, he was a truck driver for a while, lived in his car and did all kinds of crazy things. But he still was doing the thing. He still showed up to write. So I think that is just the common, common theme is like these people knew what they wanted to do and did not stop until they got it, until they did it. He's another one. He's one of the best modern day poets. Yeah, same deal. I think he was 30 before he actually started getting paying gigs. And you look at any horse trainer they'll, the same deal they had they had to work their way up through the ranks. And so it's nothing like I don't have like a, There's no like golden ticket or like life hack to get there. And I think that may be the most important thing to realize is we live in this microwave society where we want everything to happen. We want to see the results immediately. And it just doesn't happen, you know, not to get to a level of mastery. You can look at the Malcolm Gladwell, 10, 000 hour thing. You know, I don't know how true that is, but I, I do agree with it. The fact that it takes a very long time to, to reach. You know, the black belt level of any field. So I think that would be

Jill Winger: 20:06

absolutely. Yeah. Sticking with it. And it's not glamorous. And like we talked about a minute ago, it's just doing the basics sometimes over and over for a very long time. And then it starts to compound a little bit.

Mike Roberts: 20:18

Yeah, I wrote a quote. I have my little quote notebook. I wrote one down the other day. It said getting better is rarely as cool as you think it should be.

Jill Winger: 20:25

Hmm.

Mike Roberts: 20:26

know, because it never is. It never is as cool. Like outside looking in and you look at other people and you see their, their path or their career and you're like, Oh man, that would be so cool to do that. And what I've learned, like after I've, you know, been able to, to spend some time with these individuals that I looked up to, it's like, oh man, like that, that's really not that cool what you had to do.

Jill Winger: 20:50

Yeah.

Mike Roberts: 20:50

I wonder a question I like to have been pondering to ask these guys is could you do it again? Would you, would you do it again? What you know now?

Jill Winger: 21:00

Yeah. That's a great question because I, yeah. Do you ever find, I mean, I know you've experienced success in different arenas, if you will, literally and figuratively of your life. Do you ever, and you know what it takes, do you ever start something new and kinda look at that path ahead of you and go, oh my gosh, we're starting from scratch again, and you know what it takes, but there's always that, there's still that trend of trepidation there.

Mike Roberts: 21:23

Yeah, but not in the way you may think like, okay. It's not that I'm scared of doing the work. I'm scared of not being fulfilled by it because my thing like going to achieve it, whatever it is. And I know that may sound bold or arrogant, but like,

Jill Winger: 21:37

no.

Mike Roberts: 21:38

will achieve whatever I set my mind to. And so that scares me because I will, I will, I have like blind persistence. And so that is where some of that resistance comes in. Like, You know, I'm talking about writing that book. Like if I do all of this work, am I going to, is that going to fulfill me? You know, like, why is it that I want to do this thing? Money's not a, I fortunately have set myself up in a way with through investments that, you know, money's. I, I, some people work to make money. I saw this quote the other day. I make money to work and that's so true. Like that's, that's the way I look at it at this point. So yeah, I don't know again, like, I don't know if that answers your question, but I, I just find myself like questioning, is this going to fulfill me? And it almost leads Jill. It almost leads to a state of apathy at times. You know, it's almost like not showing up to do it because I get caught up. Trying to analyze what it is that I want to do and be, because that's the thing where I know I'm going all over the place here, but we only have a limited amount of limited amount of time and I tried almost to a fault so hard to optimize my time and to be as efficient as I can with my time, you know, and so I'm very careful as to what I say yes to what I say no to so yeah, still, still figuring it out. Still, you know, day to day.

Jill Winger: 23:01

I think that's such an interesting perspective, because Most people I run into are still in the stage of, I don't know if I have the grit or the resilience to complete it. And you've moved past that to where you're like, no, I'll do it. I'll latch on like a bulldog and I'm not going to let go, but is it worth it? And I think it's, that's a fascinating thing to chew on. I've never heard anyone explain it quite like that. What do you think? Cause I know you're, you're obviously a very growth minded person. You're hungry for, for getting out of your comfort zone and doing big things. What do you think makes people, some people hungry for growth and others not so much? Do you feel like some people are just wired that way? Have you been able to pick up on any of that through your readings and your interviews? I'm always really fascinated by that. Yeah. Because I guess because I'm wired that way as well, and I wish I could bring it to more people, but it seems like sometimes folks just won't latch onto that.

Mike Roberts: 23:53

You know, that's an interesting question. Nature versus nurture. Like I don't know that I'm qualified to answer that, but like, in my opinion, like, in my experience, I think it is your surroundings. Like, it's who, I think that has Okay. more of an influence than what you're born with. The people around you, the environment that you're around I think plays a very big role in who you are to become, what, what your interests are going to be in. Yeah, I think it's your environment.

Jill Winger: 24:23

Yeah, I agree. Which is, I think, good news because that means we're not just stuck with our genetics or our family of

Mike Roberts: 24:30

Well, yeah, and that's a yep. 100%. That's a good point. And I find myself questioning that at times. And when I've been successful, it's because I seeked answers from people that had been there before that have done the things that I wanted to do. And Not only did I learn a whole lot, they also shaved off a lot of time of that learning curve. You know, the, the lessons learned I was able to, to shorten and, and make less mistakes than what I would have if I didn't seek that out. And so that's the thing I find myself doing now. It's like, well, if you want to do this thing, you know, people go find the people that have the answers. Or the people that you want to learn from the people that you want to spend time with, go do that and see what happens.

Jill Winger: 25:20

Yeah, a good mentor can, can drastically shorten it. It's amazing how that works. But you got to put yourself out there, which sometimes that's for me the hardest part. It's like, I know, I know I need to go talk to you and then I'm like, but... It's, it's uncomfortable. It's going to, it's going to feel weird, but got to just push through it.

Mike Roberts: 25:36

Yeah.

Jill Winger: 25:37

Yeah. You posted at one of your poster board quotes, you posted the satisfaction of one's curiosity is one of the greatest sources of happiness in life. And I love that. Because curiosity is a, a topic I've been chewing on a lot lately, especially with my kids. Like, how do I develop more curiosity in them? Do you have any any thoughts? Cause I know you're naturally a very curious person. You can. I think that's what makes you, that's part of what makes you so popular. Do you have any thoughts on how adults could develop more curiosity? I think that's another trait that's really absent in our culture. I'm always shocked at the lack of curiosity in the people around me. What are your, what are your thoughts on that?

Mike Roberts: 26:15

I think it's like the social conditioning of social conditioning of. You get to a certain age and, and now you have to do grown up things like there should still there in, in every one of us, there's a child, you know, and like the curiosity of a child is very innocent. It's it's not jaded through life experiences or through trauma. Like it's, it's finding that inner child in you. And that, that may sound like a cliche answer. But I, I truly, no, I believe it. I believe that. Yeah. Find your inner child and get curious. Like, I don't know that that question just seems foreign to me because that's something I do not struggle with is just curiosity. Like I'm on the other end of the spectrum to a fault, curious asking all kinds of questions of myself, of this world of work how can I get better, you know, whatever it may be. Because I think that is what dictates our, our life is the quality of the questions that you ask are going to dictate the trajectory of your life.

Jill Winger: 27:24

I, I totally agree. Yes. How do you think people can learn to ask better questions?

Mike Roberts: 27:29

Mm. There's a whole gosh dang. You know,'I, I mentioned earlier I was in sales and so I wanted to become the best salesman that I could be. And so I constantly was reading books on sales and with that comes psychology, with that comes question asking. And so ask open ended questions, who, what, when, where, why, don't ask yes, no questions. And this is like, whether it's you setting up a journal prompt for yourself. Or you're asking a mentor or somebody that you're, you know, you want to get information out of. Who, what, when, where, why? Like those are the, that that's at its most basic level. Cause that's going to get people talk, talking, right.

Jill Winger: 28:15

Hmm.

Mike Roberts: 28:16

how am I supposed to do that? You know, like somebody tells you something, gosh, dang, how am I supposed to do that? This is like a negotiation tactic. Chris Voss never split the difference. I don't know if you've heard of that book. That's a, that's a good. That's a good place to start, you know, and that, that is specific for negotiations, but it applies to everything in life, you know, and so I think that's what draws me to the psychology and the question asking, yes, it's beneficial for sales and business, but it's also just beneficial to become a better human.

Jill Winger: 28:48

Yeah, absolutely.

Mike Roberts: 28:50

how would you

Jill Winger: 28:50

I think sometimes people, well, I don't know, I think sometimes people, and I know in my previous life, I didn't like to ask questions because I was, didn't want to find the answer. Right, especially the bigger questions of what do I believe and can this belief hold up or one question that I used to struggle with is I came from a really heavy religious background. I'm not involved in that anymore. But like, what would it take? What evidence would I need for P not to believe this anymore? Like, that's a really scary question. And when you start to ask yourself that and look at that. And so, you know ever since coming out of that world, I've become a huge fan of asking questions and digging deep and also just being able to sit with the questions that don't really have super black and white answers and being okay with that and being okay in the gray. So, I just love that topic because it's a newer one to me, you know, in the last decade or so, and I love to hear people's perspective on that.

Mike Roberts: 29:42

You said something that just triggered a thought to me. I think another reason I am, I would call myself a good question asker. Assume you know nothing about a topic, about anything, about whatever it is you're wanting to get better at. Assume you know nothing. It'll be interesting to see where that will lead you and what questions, even if you think you may know something. Because I think a lot of times people are scared to appear that they don't know the answer. So, like, if you can get to the place mentally where you're okay showing up and not knowing the answer, um, People are going to see you as human and people were, are, people always want to help, right? People always want to give you advice. I can't say everybody, but for the most part, humans want to help other humans. And so a book I was reading, I think it was by Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People. The number one word in the human language. Do you know what it is?

Jill Winger: 30:44

No,

Mike Roberts: 30:45

The number one word used in the human language is I, because people love to talk about themselves. And so you get somebody talking, you know, you ask, start asking questions to people, they're going to want to talk about themselves. Again, just assume you know nothing. I think more can be learned through that. And it's okay to appear like you don't know anything.

Jill Winger: 31:07

Yeah. Vulnerability goes a long ways. Especially in the online world, I've found. When you're creating, I've found sometimes just letting your humanness show through, people really respond well to that. They appreciate

Mike Roberts: 31:17

100%. Look at comedians. If you really pay attention to it, and I look at things through a different lens like, look at what comedians content is. They're constantly throwing themselves under the bus and, because people can relate to what their jokes are, you know, and so they're constantly calling themselves out on everyday things that we all go through and that we can all relate to. You know, it's like, have the ability to pull off the mask because we all show up with these masks that we want to present to the public to the rest of the world. And then we go home and then the mask comes off and, and then the self judgments and all of the things you know, that we deal with as humans come out, but in public, how do we do that? Like you just said it. In a practice that I have. Try to be more vulnerable. Try to expose whatever it is that you're comfortable with showing revealing. And again, just see what happens. It's such a cool experience.

Jill Winger: 32:15

It really is. And I find that it ends up helping you attract Your actual tribe versus the tribe that likes you for the

Mike Roberts: 32:23

Yeah, and

Jill Winger: 32:24

scary as it is to take the mask off,

Mike Roberts: 32:25

it's still so true, Jill. I agree with you 100%.

Jill Winger: 32:29

Yeah, yeah. Scary but good. Good,

Mike Roberts: 32:31

Well, it's scary and uncomfortable at first, and then you get comfortable with it. Like anything that we do that is new, of course, is uncomfortable. Until it's not, you know, and, and then, then that's when you start becoming the new version of yourself.

Jill Winger: 32:47

Yep, yep, that's where the growth happens. Yeah. Yeah. So The topic of mental toughness. I think that's a trait that we don't, we see kind of, it's a dying, it's a dying trait in our modern culture more and more. It seems like many people of yesteryear had more mental toughness, although I'm sure there were plenty of mental toughness. Exceptions and, you know, both worlds happening there. I know you're a competitor. I know you, you read a lot. So what are your thoughts on developing mental toughness and how can we bring more of that into our lives as modern people who lived in a, who live in a pretty soft world,

Mike Roberts: 33:21

Yeah. Tell me what you mean by mental toughness.

Jill Winger: 33:24

I think just the being able to be resilient and being able to get knocked down in whatever capacity and get back up and keep on trucking.

Mike Roberts: 33:31

Okay. Yeah, I think there is like the whatever this woke time that we're in So I think there's a fine line. I'm gonna be very careful with try to be very careful with my words here because I feel like there are people that struggle with some mental health issues and I want to be very respectful of that at the same time I think it's it comes down to like an honest conversation with yourself, and I've been journaling This week about this exact thing and to have an honest conversation to hold yourself accountable All of that has to start with like a clear vision. You got to be very aware of what's going on What is important to you? What is the what are your goals and desires and Have respect I wrote this this morning have respect for the higher version of yourself for the better version of yourself. You've got to have respect for that person. And, and really question what is it that they would want you to do? You know, like I think you mentioned it earlier, like the you in five years, what are they going to thank you for doing today? You know, and so that that is mental toughness to me, like to be able to go through the struggles and the challenges and, and keep showing up when you get your teeth kicked in and you may fail and you may not be getting the results that you want to get. That's mental toughness, like to just keep showing up. And I will say this too, like you, there's a fine line, like holding yourself accountable, judgment. There's a line right here. You get too far over here in this self judgment and self doubt. And imposter syndrome, it's debilitating. You're not going to do anything. You're not going to show up at all because you're just going to question everything. So yeah, but at the same time, if you don't have that honest conversation with yourself and you're not holding yourself accountable according to the standards of your higher self, then you're not living up to your potential and you're leaving you're leaving opportunities on the table, potentially.

Jill Winger: 35:33

Yeah. And our subconscious knows when we're not living up to our potential, I think. I think that's why so many people feel out of sorts, is they know that they are something else, they're capable of more, and they're not chasing that for whatever reason, lots of factors. But our body tells us, and we, we inerrantly feel it.

Mike Roberts: 35:49

Yeah, I agree. And, and I did an interview with Steven Kotler. He is I don't know if you've read any of his work, but one of those that I look up to and, and as an expert in the, in the science of flow, flow state. But he said, yeah, we have this built in bullshit detector. And it goes both ways. Like if you're telling yourself you're a millionaire and trying to manifest all these things, yet you're working at Walmart and you're not really doing anything to make that dream happen. Well, your body, your brain and body know that. You're bullshitting yourself. So it goes both

Jill Winger: 36:23

Yes. Yes. Yeah. I think that's a great point. Yeah, both ways for sure, because you can't go too far the other way. You know, it's good to have big vision and goals, and then we all know the blowhard people who just never stop talking, and you're like, you're not backing up anything you're saying, and that doesn't feel good to anyone, including themselves, either.

Mike Roberts: 36:39

Yeah. Like I think it all starts with a thought. It all starts in our own brain, you know? But I think when you can combine the two, and you can combine action with those manifesting thoughts, like that's when magic happens. And you do that over an extended period of time, the compound effect, you know, kicks in. And that's really when you start to see some results.

Jill Winger: 37:01

Yeah. Action. That's, that's my language. You're speaking my language. Little messy, imperfect action. Yes, totally. So, well, our time has flown by just kind of a final curiosity question on my part that I think a lot of people also ask is a practical one. How do you find time to read so much? I know it sounds like you're reading quite a bit. I think that's fantastic. Do you have any tricks for making that happen?

Mike Roberts: 37:26

Yeah. Wake up early.

Jill Winger: 37:28

There you go. There it is.

Mike Roberts: 37:31

Yeah, I mean, I'll elaborate a little bit, you know when I really started to read a whole bunch more, I I was, For doing the pharmaceutical sales thing, and I thought I was killing the game I was waking up at 6 in the morning, and I thought I was really doing it and then I a friend of mine she was a nurse or is still as a nurse practitioner and She would tell me about morning. She'd wake up at 3 to do her charts and do all these things I'm like oh my god. That's so crazy. You're a badass and so I worked my way up to that You know like I would just wake up 30 minutes earlier And I was amazed at what what I could get done by just waking up 30 minutes earlier. And so, 5. 30 became 5, 5 became 4. 30, 4, now I get up at 3. 30. Most every

Jill Winger: 38:19

And you're, are you reading or do you have a routine

Mike Roberts: 38:23

I do have a routine and I gosh, I hesitate to even say that because I don't want to sound like one of these gurus that tries to pitch this four hour morning routine. But it, but it works for me. I do wake up, I read, I write, I. Yeah, journal. And then of course, meditate. And what I have found, and that's why I think I went through that mental fogginess. I kind of fell out of some of those mental practices, at least the consistency of them. And gosh, man, it was, it was rough and I've recently got back into to that and I'm like, well, shit, that's what works for me. You know, it may not work for you or somebody else. It's just what works for me. And so, and the reason why is because my phone is in do not disturb. I don't look at social media. I'm not looking at emails. My phone's not ringing. Just kind of my time and to focus on me and what's important to me at that time. Yeah. For anybody that's wanting to read, I like the book, you know, the old school fashion, read a book because I can highlight, I can tab pages. I can go back and reread it. I also like audio books for those of. The people that are listening that want to make the excuse, and they may not have time they, let me rephrase that they may not make the time. They may not want to make the time to read. Their audio audio books are great, but when you can do both, I feel like that's when I really learned the most from these books is I may listen to part of a book on the way home today, and then I'll read that chapter tomorrow. I'll read a few pages from that chapter tomorrow. And that's the thing. Okay. Sorry I'm going on this tangent here, but people tell me, they ask me that all the time. How do you read so much? How do you read so much? Man, the, start with like, the daily stoic. That's one page a day. And if you do that, at the end of the year, most likely you're gonna at least have read one book. You know what I mean? So don't think you have to sit down and read for hours. Set a timer. Read for five minutes. Read for ten minutes. Just a little bit will do a whole bunch. And James Clear, he has a book called Atomic Habits. And he talks about that. Just showing up for yourself consistently. Even just two minutes a day. What you're doing is you're creating the habit of what you want your day to become. You know, what, what the habits that you want to implement on a consistent basis. And so, yeah, I try to do that and that's what I would recommend it for anybody that's, that's wanting to, to read and I guess the, the deeper question to ask is why, like, why do you want to read and answer, get that answered? And if your why is strong enough, you'll show up to read.

Jill Winger: 41:03

Exactly. Yep. You'll make the time. Yeah. Do you, I kind of hate it when people ask me this question, but I'm going to ask you this question just for fun. Do you have a favorite book or does it just depend? Or do you have many favorite books?

Mike Roberts: 41:18

I do. It just, I guess depends on where, what I'm wherever my mental state is at that time.

Jill Winger: 41:25

YEah.

Mike Roberts: 41:26

what about like, can you, I was going to ask here, how about this? How about this? The I'll give you, like, a few that really helped me out when I was in a dark place. Will that work?

Jill Winger: 41:38

Awesome. That's great.

Mike Roberts: 41:40

So, A Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. He's a Holocaust, Holocaust survivor. Have you read that one?

Jill Winger: 41:47

Yeah, I have. So good.

Mike Roberts: 41:48

Yeah, so, that was one. The Way to Love by Anthony DeMello. That's another one. And that's about attachments, you know, and the things in our life that are outside of ourselves that we attach to and that we that we give, the power of like our own happiness to so yeah, the, the way to love awareness is another one by Anthony de Mello and then the four agreements. I think Don Miguel Ruiz wrote that one. I want to mention Dr. Joe Dispenza wrote, You Are The Placebo. That's a good one, and that one goes in line with the one I mentioned first. How to gosh, what was the one? Think and Grow

Jill Winger: 42:31

Command search for meeting.

Mike Roberts: 42:32

Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. Very similar concepts, however, Joe Dispenza gives, like, some science behind it. He's able to put some data behind the laws of attraction.

Jill Winger: 42:45

Yeah.

Mike Roberts: 42:46

And then of course the one I just mentioned, James Clear, Atomic Habit, that's a good one.

Jill Winger: 42:51

Yes, that one is breaking all the records and dominating continually. It's

Mike Roberts: 42:56

about you? What is your answer? What is your favorite book?

Jill Winger: 42:59

Oh, I don't know. It depends. It depends on the season. I think right now I'm really, have you read any of Wendell Berry? You familiar with

Mike Roberts: 43:05

I don't think so.

Jill Winger: 43:07

He's a, he's written some fiction. I prefer nonfiction generally, but he speaks a lot to just connecting with nature and our, our society's drift away from that and how we can come back from that regenerative agriculture view. But I don't know, there's something about him. It's just, he just speaks to me.

Mike Roberts: 43:23

Windleberry. I just wrote it down.

Jill Winger: 43:25

Wendell Berry. Yeah, I think you'd like him. He's got that heart of a poet, but he has philosophy in there too. He's just, he makes my heart happy when I read him. So. Well Mike, this was awesome. Thank you for getting deep with me. This was such a treat. Can you remind the audience where they can find you? Your podcast, your socials, all those places where they can connect.

Mike Roberts: 43:47

At the Converse Cowboy. I Think that's what it is on just about every platform, so.

Jill Winger: 43:54

Awesome. And your podcast is the Converse Cowboy. And y'all, even if you're not a horse person you'll get a ton out of his episodes, so definitely add it to your list of weekly lessons. Thank you, Mike. This was such a pleasure and I hope to chat with you again

Mike Roberts: 44:07

Of course. Thank you for having me on, Joe. I truly enjoyed it.