S13 E9: Confused by Compost? This Episode is For You!

Composting is one of the most natural processes on the planet... so why does it feel so confusing sometimes? Even though I've dabbled in compost for YEARS, there were certain aspects that always felt elusive... until now! 

I'm thrilled to be joined in this episode by Kate Flood aka "Compostable Kate." She's an author and Compost Coach with an uncanny way of making compost fun. She re-inspired my own compost journey and I'm sure she'll do the same for yours!

Learn more about Kate Flood's book The Compost Coach here: https://geni.us/TheCompostCoach

Find Kate Flood here: https://www.instagram.com/compostable.kate/

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Weekly musings from my homestead: http://theprairiehomestead.com/letter

My essays on an old-fashioned life: www.prairiephilosophy.com

My homesteading tutorials & recipes: www.theprairiehomestead.com

Our Wyoming-raised, grass-finished beef: http://genuinebeefco.com

Jill on Twitter: http://twitter.com/homesteader

Jill on Instagram: @jill.winger

Jill on Facebook: http://facebook.com/theprairiehomestead

Transcript

Jill Winger: 0:00

Hey friends, and welcome back to The Old Fashioned On Purpose Podcast. I am very excited for today's episode because we're gonna do a deep dive into a topic that I think you're probably already familiar with and maybe even dabbled in. But if you're anything like me, you're just needing a little bit of extra oomph to really master the whole process. And I'm talking about compost. I think most homesteaders have dabbled with compost, whether you have a pile of Cow manure or a horse manure like me, or maybe some chicken manure. But how do you know if you're doing it? So it is going to be safe for your garden? So it's gonna be the most nutritious. How do you handle weeded seeds and the, the cold techniques and the hot techniques. There's just so many questions and so much technicality. So I am so excited to have a compost queen with me today. Kate Flood is here. She Is from New South Wales, Australia. I think she's the first Australian I've ever had on the podcast, which was evident in the fact that I totally messed up our first recording'cause I didn't know the whole time zone difference because it's substantial But anyway, she has a book and she is known as compostable Kate. She teaches compost so well and in such an understandable way, I cannot wait to chat. So welcome Kate. I'm so thrilled to have you.

Track 1: 1:11

Thank you, Jill. It's lovely being here and, and yeah, time zones are hard, so I totally get it.

Jill Winger: 1:17

Yes,

Track 1: 1:18

why I'm having my, my morning cup of tea. I actually am awake at 5:00 AM so a 6:00 AM start is good for me, so I hope the time is, is, is good for you. It's not, it doesn't look like it's about to be your bedtime.

Jill Winger: 1:29

No, it's two. It's 2:00 PM in the afternoon here. So it's 6:00 AM

Track 1: 1:32

Oh, that's perfect.

Jill Winger: 1:33

day there, right? Like you're,

Track 1: 1:35

Yes, yes, yes, that's right.

Jill Winger: 1:37

today? Today's Monday

Track 1: 1:38

here. Yeah.

Jill Winger: 1:39

for you. Yeah. So hard to wrap my mind around that so, oh my goodness. But yeah, so I'm learning about international time zones this week. Go me. But anyway, yeah, we were chatting before I hit record. Just, you know, I've, I've played with compost. Actually compost was the biggest, like the impetus that started our homestead. We had horses when we bought our property, and I realized we didn't have a way to deal with all the horse manure. We couldn't afford a tractor. And so this horse manure was piling up and I was like, what are we gonna do with it? I can't afford to get it hauled off. And the compost pile was really one of those dominoes that ended up jump starting our homestead journey. And so I've, I've done it since then. I've done it over a decade, but I, I've never been super confident in it. So I'm excited for you to be here. Can you kind of give us a little bit of background on you and why you're so passionate about this topic?

Track 1: 2:27

Yes, absolutely. So for me, making compost just feels like the most Actionable, rewarding bit of climate activism we can all be doing in our own house. So I started my own composting journey from my lovely mother, the original compost queen. She has been doing it since the seventies. She's a old time hippie. And it's, it's interesting'cause it's like gone from being quite a small niche. Kipi kind of alternative thing to being much more mainstream. But I was lucky enough to be raised in a household where we always had a compost pile which was definitely not the norm as I was growing up. And so then when I moved outta home in my twenties, I forced my housemates to compost. And at that point, you know, we. We had successes and failures. And it's just been something that I've always done. And now that I have three of my own small people I really want my kids to live in a household where we don't put precious resources like food scraps, the trash. We, we return those nutrients to our soil. And so I'm a, a trained high school teacher. And one of my subjects that I taught was food tech. So that's like cooking home ec, maybe you call it in the States. And. I just used to feel really distressed that I would be teaching these soon to be adults, how to cook. But then at the end of each lesson, we would throw our food scraps into the bin and I would take as many of the food scraps home as I possibly could, but it was a school of a thousand kids, so I couldn't take all of them home. And I would, I would really talk to the principal and try and get compost happening, but there was always pushbacks to it. And so for me, I'm an educator that's really passionate about teaching these life skills that I think everyone should know about. So that's how my Instagram page came about during Covid. And it's also how my book The Compost Coach came about because I wanted it to I wanted to break down all of the fundamental steps that people need to know to successfully do this at home.

Jill Winger: 4:31

Yeah. I love how you, you were talking, or I guess I relate to it so much about like, food going into the trash at the school. I think about that kind of stuff all the time. And sometimes I feel like a lot of people don't, it doesn't even register that that's happening. And it just, it bothers me. Like we have a little restaurant. It's not very big, but like just. Just scraping plates after we clear tables, like there's so much food that goes in the trash and so we end up bringing it home to the chickens and the pigs.'cause I'm like, I cannot handle throwing this in the, the garbage. And a lot of, it's not really composting, it's more than just veggies. It's like potatoes and meat. So the pigs and the chickens get it, but it just makes me feel better when I know it's just not going in a

Track 1: 5:07

Oh, totally.

Jill Winger: 5:08

Yeah.

Track 1: 5:09

Yeah, no, look, that's, and I think that's the interesting mindset of being a homesteader. You don't, you really don't think about these things as trash. You think about them as resources that you can cycle into one of your systems and you're feeding your scraps to livestock is a really fantastic closed loop system, especially if you then successfully can compost their manure, which is what, what started it all for you. And I think it's, it's really interesting because for me, I feel like. Making compost is this secret, special gateway activity that often opens up people's eyes to other forms of climate activism that they can be doing at home and other ways to protect our planet. Because once you start reframing the fact that. These resources are not trash. They're treasure. Then you start thinking, oh, well maybe I'll rip up a, a little patch of grass that I'm having to water all the time and fertilize and actually not getting anything edible or beautiful from it. And, you know, I'll plant a new garden for pollinators or I'll plant some, some food in my garden. But it, it just, it, yeah, it's like this interesting gateway activity. And I can see, yeah, it's, it's a story that I see echoed over and over and it's, it's interesting that that happened with you as well.

Jill Winger: 6:22

Yeah, I think it's just that breaking that modern mindset. We're just, we just, we break all the connections somehow in our modern world of just how you know, of soil and understanding that food comes from the soil and we're a part of that. And you know, just even the, how nature doesn't waste anything. Yet in our modern little mindsets. We put everything in plastic and we break all of the beautiful structures that nature has in place to turn waste, quote unquote, into treasure. And so I think Like you said, it's just a beautiful gateway. When you start to go, wait a second, I've thought of this as disgusting. Manure is disgusting. Food waste is disgusting, and it's actually not. It's actually a beautiful thing. So I think it's just that little shift we have to make. Yeah.

Track 1: 7:01

totally. And that's something that I really like to emphasize instead of going out to. A big box store or a landscaping store to bring in these nutrients to bring in fertilizer, to bring back compost. You can actually shop your own garden and. I talk about putting on your compost colored glasses because once you see the world in that way, you can see that we actually, especially on a homestead where you have access to soil because, you know, lots of, lots of us don't have, have access to soil and land. But if you do, you are in a really lucky position to be having this organic matter that you can then return back into your soil to feed it for, for your next season's crops. Yeah, it's, it's interesting and so I, I was a food tech home neck teacher, and now my big recipe that I'm teaching is how to make perfect compost. And I like to teach it as a bit of a recipe because I think it sort of simplifies the process because making compost is like a little bit of a combination of an art and a science. But if you simplify it to the four universal ingredients that you need to add into compost to get the balance right, to feed the microbes, then you can really nail it. So the, those four ingredients are your nitrogen rich scraps. So they're things like manure. Food waste coffee grounds your green plant materials. So grass clippings, hedge, prunings and they need to be balanced with carbon. So that is generally the dead, dry, organic matter. So some of my favorite forms of carbon aged wood chips. Autumn leaves. You can also use manufactured paper products. You need to check for P F A Ss, which is a really tricky, troubling forever chemical. But I explained a really simple olive oil test in my book to check for that. But you can use things like newspaper and shred it up. Cardboard Because they're really rich in carbon. And what you need to think about is we sure we are feeding things like worms and beetles and Slaters. I think in the states you call them Rollie pollies maybe.

Jill Winger: 9:06

Yep. What? What do you call them? Where you are?

Track 1: 9:10

Slap Slaters. Slaters. Yeah. No, it's, it, it's I know, yeah, it's, it's one of those interesting compost creatures because there's so many different names. Just in the next state over from where I live in Victoria, people there called them Butchy boys, I dunno where that came from.

Jill Winger: 9:29

But

Track 1: 9:30

but,

Jill Winger: 9:31

Yeah.

Track 1: 9:34

The life in, in your soil needs this balance of nitrogen and carbon. And so often people just think about adding manure or adding food waste. And that's when you get a wet, sloppy, stinky par. So you have to balance in compost language. We call it your greens and your browns, which is a little bit confusing because the greens aren't always colored green, you know, manure, you not green, it's brown. And then the other two ingredients of perfect compost. Water. So all of the life on Earth needs access to water, and often our nitrogen rich scraps are kind of juicy and full of water. But in the height of summer, that's not gonna be enough. So we do need to monitor the moisture of our pile, add more water if need be, because if a pile of compost dries out, then the biology will die off. And without the creatures of the compost, you're not going to make. Beautiful compost. Equally, if it's been a really wet season compost that is too moist can become what's called anaerobic, which means it's proliferating the wrong bacteria and it will become stinky and smelly. So then you need to turn it, so the final ingredient is oxygen, and that kind of feels like an. Intangible ingredient, but actually we can add oxygen into our piles in a number of ways. So we can turn our compost to get oxygen into the core of the, the organic matter. You can layer your compost with things like, Wood chips. So wood chips create little pore spaces of oxygen. And that's a really easy static way to add in air into our pile without turning it all the time. You can also add in compost lungs. So that's like a P V C pipe drilled with lots of holes and you put that into your pile and you build the organic matter around that. So oxygen is essential because otherwise we get the proliferation of. The bacteria that causes the smells and actually can release methane so people don't realize that your compost par if you don't balance it right, can actually be producing methane, which obviously we wanna avoid.

Jill Winger: 11:40

Sure. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. The turning is one. I know when we first started, that felt really intimidating'cause I had a, maybe a bigger pile than I needed. I had built a really big bin and then I was like, I'll just turn it. And then I realized turning it was not a small feat. It was actually a rather big ordeal. So then I was like, I kind of gave up and then it got weird. So, Yeah, I like the idea of, you said the wood chips kind of bring the pockets of air, so maybe if you have a larger space, you wouldn't have to be under your pitchfork as much.

Track 1: 12:07

Yes. Yes, absolutely. And that, that is one of the things that can get people stuck is the feeling that you need to be really turning your compost all the time and you know, doing all of these processes all the time. But I think we need to remind ourselves that when you get the balance of carbon and nitrogen correct. Compost happens every day in nature. So if you pull back the, the leaves on a forest floor, you see the most beautiful compost. And that's without any human intervention. But you do need to get those balance of ingredients right. A really fantastic compost maker and market gardener in the uk. Charles Dowding. He has really large scale. Compost. He, so he's, I have four feature interviews in my book, and he's one of them. And his, his compost bays are just like the Rolls Royce composting. That's why I really wanted to feature him. But he only turns his compost once. And that's because he has those layers so perfectly executed that there are pockets of oxygen throughout the mix. So you don't have to feel intimidated, but if you just have a big pile of manure without any carbon, then yes, you will need to be turning that really regularly,

Jill Winger: 13:18

Okay. And that's kind of what

Track 1: 13:20

is, which can be backbreaking work.

Jill Winger: 13:21

Yeah. And I, I mean, at this point we have a really big pile manure That ends up accumulating over years. So we will just turn it with our tractor or, or something like that.'cause it would be almost impossible to do by hand. But I was gonna ask you that. Well now I have all these questions. that you, that now that you said that. So first let me ask this so it makes sense. The, can you explain the carbon nitrogen ratio a little bit?'cause I've, I've seen a lot of different formulas and some people make it really complex and intimidating. And I'd love to know your, your take on that.

Track 1: 13:53

Yeah, absolutely. So that's a little bit of compost language. Sometimes it's just referred to as the CN ratio. So what that means is the amount of carbon relative to nitrogen. So in all of our compost making ingredients there will be. Some carbon and there will be some nitrogen, some ingredients. So wood chips have a lot of carbon, so that has a high CN ratio, whereas grass clippings have very little carbon, so they have a low CN ratio. They are mathematical calculations that you can do to work out the exact same ratio because what we need to be mindful of is in our compost piles the compost microbes, ideally like a CN ratio of about 30 parts carbon. To one part nitrogen, but that can become really tricky for a home compost maker to work out. And I'm not expecting you to get out your calculator and get out your scales and do that. So what I like to emphasize, yeah, no, I don't think anyone would compost if they had to do that in, in commercial composting facilities. They have worked all of this out so that they do get the nail, the ratio. But you know, this is large scale piles that made in a commercial setting. But for a home composter, What you just need to be aware of is mixing. I generally say 50 50 greens to browns. So if you have aged wood chips, they might have a CN ratio of 400 to one, so then balance those with your manure or with your grass clippings that have a much lower. Sand ratio and you will know if you get the balance right by the smell of it. So we have evolved to have these beautiful compost making tools, our fingers and our eyes, and our nose, and we get direct feedback from our compost pile. So if we haven't added enough carbon, your P will start to smell or. If we have added a huge amount of grass clips at one point, you'll notice that the conditions become a bit slimy. So you need to be looking at your compost. You need to be feeling it. You can wear gloves if you don't wanna get your hand in. But I always like to choose a ingredient that's high in carbon and mix it with an ingredient that's low in carbon, and that generally gets the balance right. It can be tricky if you are using something like Loosen. I think in the states you might call it alfalfa. Because yeah sometimes that's counted. People consider that a source of carbon, but actually that has quite a balanced CN ratio, so it's not a very good source of brown carbon rich material. Because actually, even though it kind of looks like it, it should have a lot of carbon. It has a lot of nitrogen in it. So I. I'm always emphasizing wood chips, partly because in the states you can use, actually here in Australia as well, there's this awesome free app called Chip Drop and you can connect in with local arborists who, who actively want to. Give you wood chips for free. So it's a really cool app. It depends on where you live. I, I think you know, there may be some areas where you can't access it but you can pile up wood chips, age them. And the reason why I like to add aged wood chips into my compost is because fresh wood chips. As they break down, they steal nitrogen from the either surrounding soil or from the compost itself. But if you age them, and sometimes with, with hardwood or here in Australia with eucalyptus, I need to age them for about 18 months before I use them in my compost. And yeah, so a long time because that's partly with eucalyptus because of the volatile oils. So they have slightly allopathic, which means like plants suppressing hormones within, within the oil. But when you age them and then mix them with nitrogen, those those allopathic properties are broken down by the compost microbes. But if you age wood chips, then. It, the process of them breaking down is much more speedy. And the beautiful thing about a wood chip pile, you can make compost just with wood chips alone. If you keep them moist, and it's not particularly high in, well, it doesn't have, has very little nitrogen, but it's full of fungi and our soil as a whole.

Jill Winger: 18:28

Yeah.

Track 1: 18:28

Is lacking fungi. And plants actually need to work with fungi in the soil to access nutrients. So if you are aging them off, they're going to have more available nitrogen in the mix. You're gonna have higher portion of fungi in your compost and. They're, they're beautiful to work with. I also love autumn leaves. They're not as high in carbon but you can make leaf mold as well. So that's a really, another really simple form of compost. And your leaf mold you can use to make potting soil. So yeah, I just think. There, there's all of these resources that we have on hand, and they're too precious to be giving away. I always despair when I see people using leaf blowers, blowing their leaves away, bagging them up, and then getting rid of them or burning them, and you just think, oh, you know, we stripping our our yards every season of all of these nutrients, and then we are feeding them with petrochemical based fertilizers. And you just think, this is this, we're going about this completely the wrong way. If we just keep those nutrients in our own backyard, then we have this self-containing self-feeding cycle. Yeah. It's, it's it, and you know, it's just this change in mindset. So

Jill Winger: 19:42

Yes,

Track 1: 19:42

it's something that we, we can all do.

Jill Winger: 19:45

absolutely. Yeah. It's so funny and I think we've just been marketed to so well that Oh yeah, get rid of the leaves and all manure is bad, so you, you cart that off in your plastic bags and then buy this that we'll sell you instead. And I'm like, it doesn't make sense when you start to actually think about it. Yeah.

Track 1: 19:59

Totally. And also there, there's some I talk about a, a commercial compost cautionary tale in my book. So a, a big issue with commercial compost. There's a couple of issues with it. First of all, it's very hard to regulate the waste stream that gets into commercial compost, even when it's marketed as organic. The, in terms of the regulation, at least here in Australia, it's Very tricky to make sure that everything in there actually is organic. So what has happened here in Australia, and it's happened in the States as well there's a, there's a persistent herbicide part of the Amino Parli group.

Jill Winger: 20:37

Done it. I've been there. Experienced it. Yep. Yep. Keep going. Keep going. It's horrible. Keep going.

Track 1: 22:02

And so this, this herbicide is used on broadleaf weeds and it's often sprayed on pasture. And what happens is the herbicide actually may kill the weeds that you want, but it also binds to the hay and. In that pasture. And then when that is used as a compost ingredient, or when livestock eat that hay and straw, this, this herbicide doesn't break down, it actually gets stronger in these processes. So it accumulates up the food chain. And what then happens is, and it's, it's, it's pretty notorious in commercial compost now. This herbicide as it breaks down in the compost pile. Some chemicals actually can break down in a, in a compost bin or pile or commercial facility. But this particular herbicide doesn't. It gets stronger. So then when people, when home gardeners and homesteaders use this commercial, Product on their soil and on their plants and, you know, then they plant something like tomato seeds or, or peas. And then there's either a really low germination rate or you see cupping and curling of, of leaves, especially things in the nightshade family or plant death, or, or no, fruiting that. Nine times out of 10 is because of compost contamination in a commercial facility. And this, thankfully, this herbicide does break down after about a year to 18 months. You need to fork over the soil, water it regularly, and leave it. You can plant grain manure and things like that. Nightshade peas won't grow very well. It will break down over time, but it can be a huge setback to a, a season or two or three in your garden. And it's a really tricky thing. You can test for it. So if you, if you get in a whole heap of commercial compost, get a small pot of it and plant some seeds in it first, and just watch the growth, watch what happens. Because if you apply it to your garden without testing it, you can really end up with a, with a horrendous amount of garden heartbreak. You know, it's just, it, it, it kills me that this happens. Also with, with commercial compost as well, there's a huge amount of microplastics in it. And, and P F A Ss as well, so I think. If we can make compost at home, it is so much safer for the soil. It's, it has so many benefits. It's so much more energy efficient and it's safer.

Jill Winger: 24:34

Yeah. Yeah. You just, yeah. Amen. We, I've, I've dealt with it now two separate times, and like you said, it's just a disaster. Once I realized

Track 1: 24:43

yes.

Jill Winger: 24:43

what it was the first time, I couldn't figure it out, and then I, I figured out from Googling it and it was just dev, just so devastating and took several years for it to go away, and then we accidentally had it come in, come in again two years ago. So just, it's so frustrating to me that something as beautiful as compost. Or aged manure or whatever that's supposed to feed the soil is poisoning it. And it just makes, it just makes me angry, frankly, that we're even having to

Track 1: 25:04

Well, it, it, it should make you angry because the fact that, that consumers are paying for a product. That is then killing their plants, killing the biology in your soil. It really, it, it does, it should make you egg root because it's crazy. You know, you're paying for, for a product that is contaminating your soil long term. And, you know, it does break down a, after a while. But it depends on the volume of amino parli as well. You know, like if there's a lot of it, it's gonna take a long time. So yeah, there's, there's it, it's definitely worth getting upskilling in this and talking to your neighbors, you know, if you feel, if you've got a big homestead but you don't have quiet enough organic matter then you can collectively make compost as well. You know, you might have A lot of deciduous trees and your neighbor might have a lot of manure. And you know, together with those, those carbon and nitrogen sources, you can make compost as well. There's a free global app called Share Waste which connects people with compost piles or compost bins to people that have scraps. It's a more useful app in the city, really,'cause it's, it's generally More active in the city because people that live in apartments don't have access to, to compost bins and piles. They can connect in with that. And I just love the idea of community compost making and those relationships and friendships that can happen over a compost pile. And it happened to, to, so we live now in rural New South Wales, but when we lived in Sydney a big city in New South Wales, I was on the Share Waste app as a compost host and I did make beautiful friends in our neighborhood. From it. And yeah, it's just, I just think it's a really great point of connection.

Jill Winger: 26:45

Yeah, that's, yeah. That's brilliant. To be able to come together. I actually hadn't thought of that. We we're pretty isolated from neighbors, but if, if someone's in a urban environment, I think that's, that's just an awesome idea to get together and do it.

Track 1: 26:57

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. No, it, it is. It's, it's one of those things that, you know collectively we, we are stronger when we work together. But I think it's, it, it is important. Like I. Like to, to think about having an understanding where our food is grown. But equally it's just as important knowing who's making our compost or, or if you are working with a neighbor knowing what their livestock is being fed. So asking these questions. Is really important because compost microbes especially I know you touched on, on hot composting, so the hot composting process can kill a lot of pathogens, but there are some persistent chemicals that can't break down ly amino parly. But hot compost is, is a really awesome method to explore because I feel like it's, it's. Like a magical transformation that the microbes in the mix that you're wanting to activate are called thermophilic microbes. And as they consume your scraps, they actually, one of their byproducts is heat and they can create temperatures. I'm gonna say this in Celsius, so it's gonna say sound low. So maybe you can help me convert it into Fahrenheit. So yeah. Thermophilic microbes make heat of 55 to 60 degrees Celsius which brings it out of the temperature danger zone. So pathogens can proliferate in lower temperatures, but once it gets that hot, your compost becomes really stable and really safe. So composting large amounts of manure in a hot compost pile is a really useful thing to do because e coli and salmonella. Can't proliferate once the temperature gets to that point and stays that point for a couple of days. And hot compost. Can be. It's sort of like the, the next step up from your slow cool compost. So people often start with a compost bin that they add a pile of, they add their, their caddy of kitchen scraps to, they add an equal volume autumn leaves and layer that up. But hot compost is made a little bit differently to that. So you need to build your pile or your compost bin all at once. So you are needing to have that volume of waste in one go, and that helps those thermophilic microbes spring to life. Water is really essential in the hot composting process as well, so you need to be watering your pile as you're building it because those microbes actually use up that water pretty quickly. So you need to be adding water to your mix and it isn't a hands off process. You need to be turning it regularly. I make hot compost in large scale bays, but I also make hot compost in 400 liter compost bins, which for compost purists have. It's, it's, so, it's something that people have, have wanted to see me do because they're like, no, you can't make hot compost in 400 liters.'cause traditionally it's piles of at least 1000 liters. But I add a couple of special activators to my mix and I get blisteringly hot temperatures that are not as self. So there's not as much critical volume to make it self insulating. But my hot compost stays hot for at least two weeks, which is plenty of time to kill pathogens. Yeah, it's amazing. It is really, it's magical. And so one of the, the activators that I add is a homemade one called Bahi Compost. So this is a, a form of pre compost. You ferment your scraps in an enclosed container and you add an inoculated brand, wheat brand material, and the, the specially selected microbes that are in the wheat brand. Bacteria that produce lactic acids and especially selected yeasts. And it's kind of like making sauerkraut with your scraps. So the reason why I like to use it as an activator is I have a couple of pash bins on the go that are fermenting and when I've got around four or five full of my food waste then I build my hot compost par and add those in and layer it with carbon rich materials. And the nitrogen in the fermented food waste is readily available to the thermophilic microbes because it's fermented. And it breaks down really quickly. So that nitrogen is, is available very quickly. And yeah, it's, it's, it's an interesting form of composting. It's very different to the aerobic. Composting systems like hot or cold compost or a worm farm. You make it in oxygen free conditions, so you squish down your waist. But it's a really flexible system so people that eat meat or eat dairy or eat spicy, oily food. All of those scraps can be added into your BAI system without any problem. Whereas sometimes in a compost bin, if you add meat you can encourage rodents. But in a BAI system you can add all of that. I then, with my hot compost bins, I do add rodent and snake proof mesh to the bottom. But I've found that I've experimented not doing that, and I know I do have Some rodent activity in our backyard because we have chickens, and chickens are so messy. So you often have vermin. I've experimented not adding rodent proof mesh to the bottom of my bins, and I've found that I haven't had any mice or rodents. Because the fermented scraps are reasonably acidic as they compost down the pH returns closer to neutral. But I found that that rats don't, don't, don't seem to like bashi even when there's delicious things like meat scraps or bones in there. So it's a really, yeah, it's a, it's another interesting form of compost making and that was something that I wanted to explore in my book, all of these different methods because there are, So many ways to return our nutrients to the soil. And this is a great small scale method. You know, you can, you can actually keep your pash bins inside. And yeah, it, it's, there is, there is a compost solution for, for your home, regardless of if you have a garden or not, or if you have a smaller, big home. And I feel like that's really empowering to know.

Jill Winger: 33:03

Yeah. I love that it's not just the one way, one only, and then it kind of gives us no excuses, to not get that

Track 1: 33:09

Totally.

Jill Winger: 33:10

waste back to where it belongs. Yeah. Yeah.

Track 1: 33:13

yes. Yeah, that's right. And you know, I think some, oh, sorry. Go ahead,

Jill Winger: 33:17

Go ahead,

Track 1: 33:18

I was just gonna say it was, it's interesting that the timing of all of this, because, you know, COVID created, The opportunity for lots of people to be at home and to start thinking about their, their own backyards in a different way. And to start thinking about maybe I can grow some food and maybe I can actually do something as opposed to just grass or lawn. And I think then that the next step of that, and it's definitely been the case that people then, as soon as you start thinking about plants, You often start switching into your soil and soil health and, and it can feel really intimidating and it can feel like you can't do anything. But actually composting is such a lovely, flexible process. And if you can feed the life in your soil with homegrown amendments and homegrown homemade compost, then you're gonna have a much healthier backyard.

Jill Winger: 34:12

Yeah. And it's not gonna cost you a bunch of money at the Garden store.

Track 1: 34:16

No. Yeah, that's absolutely right. That's, yeah. Binding compost is, is really expensive. And you know, I just think for, for anyone that has access to deciduous leaves, And if you're not wanting to do any hands on compost making, but you're wanting to enrich your soil, start with leaf mold. So pile up your leaves. You can use chicken wire or cages pile up your leaves and keep them moist. It may take between a year to 18 months for them to break down to speed up that process. You can mow over them with a lawnmower. Keeping the moist throughout all of the seasons is important. You're going to have beautiful. Not very high nutrients, but incredibly moisture retentive, compost at the end that's very high in fungi and very high in carbon. And we know that our future gardens are gonna be hotter and drier than ever before. And leaf mold, because it is so moisture retentive is the most. Awesome mulch to apply back onto your garden beds. And you can turn it into potting mix by adding in some worm castings or compost, adding in washed river sand or something like per light for the, the airy mix. And so we can really be making all of all of these products at home, but they take time. So you can't just go out to the shop and get things instantly. It, it's, you know, instead of the, the slow food mo movement, it's the slow gardening movement, but you are going to end up making amendments that are so much better for your soil and, and safe as well, which is really important to consider.

Jill Winger: 35:49

absolutely. And what's the timeframe? You may have said it, but just to reiterate the timeframe of a, of a hot compost bin versus a slow bin.

Track 1: 35:57

Sure. So can take up to a year to fully break down a cure. That might seem like, oh, this is taking so long. But actually with slow cool compost, you're going to have more nitrogen in it. Nitrogen isn't stable, so in a hot compost pile, you're going to produce it a lot quicker. If it's a big pile, the active decomposition can be as little as a month to six weeks. But quite a lot of the nitrogen is off gas in that process. But something that people often forget to do, and I really emphasize it whenever I'm talking to people about compost. I've got a whole chapter on it in my book. It's to cure your compost so we can get so attached to quick compost to the fiery temperatures of a hot compost par. You can make something that looks like finished compost in as little as six weeks, but you need to then Cure it, and that's a really simple process that people often overlook it. That basically is once the temperature in a hot compost pile has returned to the ambient outdoor temperature, so it's cooled down. You need to just let it sit. If you've added a lot of manure, there's really clear research that says you need to cure it for a minimum of 12 weeks. After the temperature has cooled down. So there are important processes that happen at those cooler temperatures that allow things like manure to be safe and stable to add back into your garden. So if you've had active decomposition for, you know let's say. Six weeks, then add another 12 weeks onto that. So even when it's hot and fast, it's not actually that fast. You need to be a little bit patient with compost making. But you know, that's, that's significantly quicker than a, than a cold slow pile.

Jill Winger: 37:41

Yeah. And you wouldn't have to cure the slow pile necessarily, right. Since it's kind of doing

Track 1: 37:45

No. That that correct? Yes. Yes, that's right. By the time a year's done, that's that all of that's happened because it's those cooler temperatures the whole time. Yeah. So, you know, there's, there's these, these very different methodologies, and I actually think if you have the space, have a cold pile and a hot pile going because you're going to have, they, they have different life in those compost piles. So our compost piles are not inert. What we are actually doing with them is breeding up all of this great bacteria, beautiful fungi, all of these forms of life that our soil needs. So yes compost does have nitrogen and it does have minerals, but actually what you're doing is feeding the life in your soil with a whole heap more life. So our plants. Only can access all of these nutrients in the soil and in your compost because of the life in it. An overworked soil ends up dying. So the life in your soil. A really overworked backyard can actually have ha have nothing left in it, and then your plants are gonna struggle. So there we have been talking about soil extinction. And that's because of the life and the soil dying. So. Adding compost that's full of life into your soil is the best thing to do because if you're getting in commercial fertilizer that's made from petrochemicals, that's actually, it's like a really quick bandaid fix. It's giving, maybe giving you a hit of N P K, but. Ultimately it's killing the life in your soil. So you create this cycle of dependency where you have to keep on applying it every season. But with compost, if you are feeding the life in your soil compost, you actually end up needing less of it. So Charles doubting has done some really interesting tests with this. With no dig. Gardening, you need to apply a lot of compost. At the beginning, but then each season after that, you need less because you've got this really alive substrate of soil. So it's, there's so many benefits for it, Jill. You know, it's, it's just something that we all need to, to master and it's not hard and it's fun and a little bit addictive as well.

Jill Winger: 39:58

sure. I know. And the, and that's what I, I feel like so many of these old fashioned skills do get addicting. And people who don't understand, they're like, this, you're so weird. What's wrong with you? And I'm like, you don't understand. It's like just fun. It's just weirdly fun. The things I that I get excited over so.

Track 1: 40:12

Totally, and I reckon it's because of the, the magical nature of microbes. You know, like even making sourdough bread, you know, you've got water and you've got flour. But then when you introduce microbes into the mix in, in your starter sourdough starter that's when you have this amazing transformation. And it's exactly the same with compost. So when you know you've had food scraps and you have autumn leaves, and who's gonna get excited about that? When you mix them right and you layer them correctly, then they turn into this most beautiful form of soil that you can, you can actually, you know, use in so many different ways. And it is, it is exciting and it is rewarding, but it does take time.

Jill Winger: 40:52

Yeah. And, and I feel like, I think the people who are already doing slow food can relate to the slow, like you said, slow gardening. Yeah. We just have to get rid of that instant mindset, which we're so, you know, modern culture just kinda feeds us literally and figuratively, that that's the only way. But once we step out of that, I think it's pretty easy to see. That's worth it.

Track 1: 41:10

Yes, yes, that's right. And, and I just like to keep on reminding people that may have had a compost failure, that compost gets made in Mother Nature every day. So it, it is totally doable. And there, there are gonna be hurdles, you know, if you add too much food waste in the heart of summer, you might have lots of vinegar flies that come into the mix. And, you know, there, there are. Things that you'll need to overcome. But so often the solution is carbon. So never lay food scraps exposed on the surface of a compost bin. Cover it and protect it with, with carbon rich materials. So flies, can't lay their, their eggs, and produce larvae or maggots in your par. Also just checking the moisture as well. So a really wet pile is gonna proliferate anaerobic bacteria, and it can also encourage things like flies or cockroaches. So doing a squeeze test is a useful thing. Grabbing a handful of compost and giving it a squeeze. It should feel like a rung out sponge. So maybe one, possibly two droplets of moisture might come out. But if you grab a handful and your, you know, heats of water comes out, it's too wet and you are going to have. Compost that actually, unfortunately, is not very good for your soil because anaerobic bacteria can produce a group of chemicals called photo toxins, which are not good for your soil. So just checking those four things, your nitrogen, carbon, oxygen, moisture. Once you just think of it in those terms, they are totally mon, monitorable and tweakable as well. And then you'll, you'll start working out in your backyard. I have lots of manure. I have this, and this ends up being a good balance because there's no one recipe for perfect compost. It re there's so many different things you can add into the mix. So you do need to experiment, but I think, you know, as an adult, we, we don't get to experiment very much and it's, it's a really fun thing to do.

Jill Winger: 43:03

For sure. And I mean, you could learn so much from books and and coaching and I love all that, but I think sometimes the very best experiences are you just have to go, okay, there is no proven path. I just in my exact situation, so I just have to figure it out. And that's been some of the most fun aspects of homesteading for me is like, oh, no one's done this before in this exact way. So I get to be the first, and it's fun and scary, but it's so, it's fun. So, yeah.

Track 1: 43:26

Yeah. And it ends up being so, so rewarding once, once you nail it. And you know, I think that's, that's everyone will have a pile of stinky compost once and then you learn from that. And, you know, I think, I think that's, that's a really great thing because we are, we're, I always, as a teacher, I'd always say that to my students that teachers are learners too. But, you know, adults are learners too. We, we, we are always experimenting and learning and, and embrace that, that part of Compost making journey.

Jill Winger: 43:54

Yep, absolutely. So a minute ago you mentioned compost failure. So can you coach me through a few of mine

Track 1: 44:01

Yes,

Jill Winger: 44:02

Okay. Alright. Well, I don't know if it, the one, the first one's maybe not a failure as much as I'm pretty sure I'm not doing it correctly, but I do, I'm still doing it that way regardless. So we do have, we have so much cow and horse manure on our property. So like, we'll keep our animals in a a in a pin during the winter, and then we scrape the pin up and then put it in a pile. And I have a little bit of brown in there, like maybe some dried hay or some dried straw, but most of it's manure and. I mean, to get enough carbon in there to balance, it would be a lot of carbon. So how, I guess, how bad is that? Is it still, is it, is it ever gonna be compost or is it just aged manure? Like what are your thoughts on that?

Track 1: 44:42

It, it won't be compost if it's just manure. But. Aged manure is a great soil amendment. So adding fresh manure to your garden, especially if it's something like poultry manure is problematic because poultry manure, for instance, has a really high CN ratio. It's jam packed with nitrogen so much. We call it a hot manure. It can actually burn, burn your plants, so you have to compost it down or you have to age it. Aging manure in a separate pile is actually a good thing to do. It's great if you can have some sun, carbon in there, but if you don't, if you just aging it, then. The volume will decrease significantly because manure is really high in water. And when it has aged and when the volume has decreased, adding those smaller amounts into your compost with a relatively smaller amount of carbon becomes more manageable. You could also think about in so we have, we have chickens. We, we are gonna get sheep, which I'm excited about. We're not quite there yet. We've, we've just, we've purchased our property just before Christmas, so we, I'm slowly plotting and planning and dreaming about all the things that we're gonna have. So in our in our chicken run, I have what's called a deep litter system. So I, I have a lot of carbon and I have biochar mixed into that deep liver system, biochar. Is a really stable form of carbon, which I make myself. And it helps with odors. It also helps with having that injection of lots of carbon into the mix to get the right bacteria in that deep litter system with our chickens. And so the chickens poo into the, the shredded up leaves and wood chips and biochar, and then I rake that out once a season and add that into my compost piles. And. that's a great, a great system if you can, if you can get it set up because you have that CN ratio in place in, in their bedding. But if you don't, aging it in a separate pile is fine, but you, you won't, it, it isn't compost that you're making, you have to have carbon and nitrogen balanced to actually make compost. In things like leaf mold piles or, or wood chip piles. People call it. Compost, you know, but it, it, it actually is more of just a soil amendment. But there's, there's definite piling up manure and aging. It is a really useful thing to do if you have a lot of it, because it can become, feel so unmanageable, you know, having these massive poles, you are so big that you're turning with, with a tractor. But once it's decreased in volume, then it's becomes more workable as to, to what to do with it. And you can add aged. Manure onto your garden beds as well. You do need to be aware of what you're feeding your paddle. And, but you know, if you are, if you are feeding your, your paddle safe inputs, then that's gonna be safe for your soil,

Jill Winger: 47:36

Yeah. Okay. So use that. I like what you're saying here. Use, use the age of nore as an ingredient in the compost, but it's not compost in and of itself, which makes total sense. But I, I've always had that like gray area, so I'm glad to have that cleared up. Yeah. Then my other question about my pile of aged manure, so forever, I just assume since it's basically straight manure with very little brown material carbon material that it was, had to be just like high in nitrogen. So I tested it with a soil test kit last summer, and I was shocked when the results came back that it was actually low in nitrogen.

Track 1: 48:11

Yes. And that's because nitrogen isn't

Jill Winger: 48:14

Okay, you and you

Track 1: 48:14

So,

Jill Winger: 48:15

the stable. part. Okay. So it's like, is it because it's exposed to the elements that it's going away. Okay. So if I wanted to preserve the nitrogen, I need to like cover it with a tarp or something, or protect it.

Track 1: 48:26

well, but, but also add carbon because then

Jill Winger: 48:30

I, yeah. Okay.

Track 1: 48:31

the, your compost is lo so finished compost is going to be lower in nitrogen than freshly ma, freshly ped manure. But that's because nitrogen is not stable, so it off gasses into the air. If your pile of manure has been rained on, it gets leed away in rain. But actually what is, what's left in your in your pile is easier to work with.'cause if you have Fresh, fresh manure that's really high in nitrogen. If you're wanting to use that in compost, you need an awful lot of carbon. So once it has decreased, it's actually easier to work with as well. But yeah, it's, it's interesting because these, these elements, you know, we, we feel like. We're in control of how much, you know, we say, oh, well, sheet manure has X amount of nitrogen, but actually it's not stable. So you can also just think about where you're placing your piles of manure. If you know you have got soil that's really lacking in nitrogen and is is quite quite low poly, your manure there in age it in, in an, an area of soil that needs it and your wife. So when as things get If rain washes over it and the the nitrogen leeches out, then the life in your soil will consume that nitrogen and then feed it to the plants.

Jill Winger: 49:47

Okay. That's good to know. Thank you for clearing that up. I've had that question for like a year now, and you finally answered it. So I, this

Track 1: 49:53

Oh, good.

Jill Winger: 49:54

my favorite part of the whole interview. I think although it was the whole interview, was great. So thank you for that. You are truly the compost coach so oh my goodness. So I just realized we're running up on Our time, which this, this, the conversation flew by so much. Good stuff. I think my last big question for you would be, let's say someone is living in an apartment or in a, a small urban en environment. They don't have a lot of land, they don't have a full fledged homestead. I know you mentioned share waste to that app or that website. Is there any other inspiration or ideas or advice you could offer someone, you know, they're feeling that urge to not put their food scraps in the trash bag. So How could they continue along this idea of sustainability and regenerative farming, even if they're not technically farming or homesteading.

Track 1: 50:42

Yeah, abs, such a good question. I would say the answer is worms. So compost worms are really useful for small spaces. can make your own d i y compost bin out of two food grade buckets. One of them, you drill lots of holes in all around the sides. I like using an eight millimeter drill bit. So this is one of the DIYs I explained in my book, and you can do two things with it. So if you have a small garden, you can dig that that bucket with holes into the surrounding soil or even into a large garden pot, and that becomes an in-ground worm farm. And then you add the carbon rich bedding materials into it. A handful of worms. Worms double in population size when the weather is warm every 90 days. So a small handful of worms can be a really active worm colony within a couple of months. And so you've added in your carbon bedding materials, and then you can slowly add in your food waste and carbon, and the worms will break that down along with the compost microbes in the mix. You can also, if you don't have any access to soil, put that The, the bucket with holes in another bucket and the compost lactate and the people call it worm. We or it, it's not worms, don't we? They're any poo. So, but the, the, the breakdown of those juices that appear in the bottom can be collected in that extra bucket. And that's a really small contained unit. Make sure the buckets have lids. So you have that top bucket with a lid and. That's a really great d i y to get started because it's small worms are really efficient. You do need to add carbon rich materials into a worm farm. If you just add food waste, then you're going to have a worm. Farm failure because worms don't have teeth. They work with compost microbes. So compost microbes. Proliferate on the, the surfaces of your food scraps and your carbon rich material, and once they are sitting there, they're actually releasing enzymes and breaking down the food. And then worms come in and suck up that nutrient rich slurry that's on the surface of all of your food scraps. So to optimize scraps for your worm farm, chop them up to create more surface area and balance them with your carbon rich materials as well. So it could be ripped up cardboard. It could be a handful of autumn leaves. It could be coconut core, which has, it's not the most sustainable form of carbon, but you know, We, we also need to think about the fact that you are doing something. So the fact that you're starting somewhere is so, so good and so important. So, you know, you don't have to be completely scared of commercial products when you're first getting started. But when I lived in Sydney and had a tiny backyard, I was known in the yeah, autumn months to go around raking the streets to collect everyone else's leaves.

Jill Winger: 53:40

I love it.

Track 1: 53:42

But yeah, worms are a really great solution for, for small space living and for getting in on the compost making journey.

Jill Winger: 53:49

Yeah, I've, I haven't gotten into worms yet but I've been so close so many times. I think I just need to do it. I mean, I have lots of other, you know, age of newer and composting things happening, but just the worms have always intrigued me and so, like you said, such a great idea for people in small spaces. I.

Track 1: 54:05

Totally. And worm castings are speaking of nitrogen. They're really high in nitrogen. They're higher than, than straight compost. So that's, yeah, it's, once you get worms, you'll, you'll fall in love. Jill

Jill Winger: 54:18

I, yeah, I imagine I will. I feel like it could be a whole new obsession then I'll be even

Track 1: 54:21

Yeah.

Jill Winger: 54:22

I am now so, but I'm good with that. It's a good kind of

Track 1: 54:25

Yeah. Yeah.

Jill Winger: 54:26

yeah. Oh my goodness. This was the best Kate. So much actionable information here. Now. Your book, I was flipping through the digital version. It's fantastic. If you love Kate on this interview audience, you're gonna love her book. We can get it in the States, right? Is it just

Track 1: 54:44

Yeah. Yeah, you can. Yep. It, it just hasn't, it hasn't. No, no. You can, it hasn't been released in the, the States yet. So it's coming out on the 22nd of August in the States. And it's called The Compost Coach. And it, yeah, it features Kevin from Epic Gardening's compost Bay. And it has lots of different interesting gardeners because, you know, as I said, compost making. There's so many different ways to do it, so I wanted to show how I do things, but also how other people do things so it can fit your own space and your own lifestyle. So I'm excited for your audience to read it.

Jill Winger: 55:18

So I think, but yeah, by the time this episode airs, it will be out. So guys, go get a copy.

Track 1: 55:22

Yeah, cool.

Jill Winger: 55:23

It's one of those books. You guys know, I'm, I love books, but I'm also picky which books I buy. This is one of those books you wanna have like, yeah, sure, you can google information, but to just to have it all from someone you trust in one volume is gold. So go grab a copy. And then Kate, where can people follow along with you online?

Track 1: 55:41

I am known as compostable Kate on Instagram and begrudgingly on TikTok.

Jill Winger: 55:47

I, I also

Track 1: 55:48

I have.

Jill Winger: 55:48

about that platform. Yes.

Track 1: 55:50

Oh, I know. I haven't, I have it on a set, an old phone, so I don't have it on this phone.'cause I just feel paranoid about, you know, who's managing it and, and what data they're collecting. But, you know, it's, it's. It's lots of people are on it and I have information that I wanna be teaching lots of people. So they're, they're my two main social media platforms. I'm known as compostable Kate on both of them.

Jill Winger: 56:12

fantastic. Well, everybody go, go have a look. And thank you again for not only talking me through my own personal compost dilemmas, but just giving us so much inspiration. I feel like a whole renewed interest in this, this idea of composting, even though I've done it for a long time. So thanks for the little extra shot in the arm.

Track 1: 56:29

Oh, I'm so pleased to hear that. Yeah, it's, it's, it's super fun. I think that's something that I want to emphasize. It is genuinely really fun. So explore it, experiment, and yeah, know that your soil is gonna be so much happier and healthier because of it.

Jill Winger: 56:45

Yes. Amen.

Track 1: 56:48

Thanks, Jill.